Brain Fart hand

Beavis68 · #1 11-20-2005, 03:17 PM

This hand was terrible. I shouldn't have been in the pot. But since I was what do you? I know PF was bad, please be brutal, I was definitely on tilt by this time.

BTW, these players were terrible. 50%+_seeing the flop, a few with 80%VPIP.

Ultimate Bet 2/4 Omaha/8 (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is Button with 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, 2 folds, MP3 calls, CO calls, Hero calls, SB completes, BB raises, UTG calls, DELHI calls, UTG+2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, Hero calls, SB calls.

Flop: (17 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (8 players)
SB checks, BB bets, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 raises, MP3 folds, CO folds, Hero 3-bets, SB folds, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls.

Turn: (15 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+2 bets, Hero raises, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+2 calls.

River: (23 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+2 checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 23 BB

#2 11-20-2005, 05:23 PM

Preflop: Yeah, bad players or not, this is an awful call. You have nothing working with this hand. Stay disciplined, bud.
Flop: Pretty standard to me. Trying to protect your top set against the flush, but you have some straight outs that if hit could end up being the best hand. Not to mention this 3-bet might get some slightly stronger low draws out of the pot.
Turn: Standard.
River: There's no way you could have scooped this spot. At best you are taking 1/2, but even that is pretty rare. You have to check behind here.

So, basically, your preflop play sucked, but post-flop was fine.

benwood · #3 11-21-2005, 02:15 AM

Like Bullet Dodger said, bad pre-flop call, rest fine. Why do you call this a brain fart hand? Explain further, please. Thanks. Ben.

Beavis68 · #4 11-21-2005, 11:29 AM

Because of the preflop call. I know better.

Buzz · #5 11-21-2005, 07:31 PM

Beavis - You have a sub-marginal, below average starting hand, a very speculative starting hand. Maybe you think you can see the flop for one bet but then BB raises behind you. Ugh. Well... the call of the raise is correct, anyway.

Then you flop top set and an open ended low straight draw. But the flop also has two clubs (and you have no clubs). BB, the pre-flop raiser bets this flop. Looks like maybe BB has an A23X, A2XY, or A3XY low, maybe with a club draw.

But UTG+2 raises! What the heck is that? Looks a lot like a nut club draw maybe with something else like a nut low thrown in.

Now what to do? Call? Raise? Seems a close decision to me. (Depending on how you've been playing up to this point, I think making it three bets might mark you for the top set). At any rate, you raise and get three callers. Fine.

Then you make a second-nut straight on the turn. And 68XY for the nut straight seems unlikely. But UTG+2 bets! What is that? Is UTG+2 maybe simply very aggressive?

Again, now what to do? Again seems a close decision for me. Anyhow, you raise. Fine.

The river is ugly. You have to think BB and/or UTG+2 has a low and will probably continue to a bet. And maybe one of them has the club flush and is hoping for a check raise on the river. But from the perspective of someone without the nut club flush, you could have the nut club flush yourself, and maybe the nut low too! The pot is huge. Do any of these players ever fold a non-nut hand to a bet on the river? I think you have to bet here just in case one of them will.

If you've been doing this too often on the button, you should fully expect to get check-raised. But if you haven't been playing overly aggressively, the possible gain is certainly worth the risk. Even if you have been playing too aggressively, because of the size of the pot, I think you have to try to improve your chances to win something by betting on the river here.

Just my opinion.

Buzz

benwood · #6 11-22-2005, 03:04 AM

Wow! Betting this river is an interesting play.I would never have thought about it.We're hoping that there was only 1 guy drawing to a non-nut flush & then decides to throw it away after a bet on the river.I'm not being facitious.I'm just trying to to get my mind around it.I know that you don't have a good chance of this happening,but I also know that this is a huge pot. It just seems so remote to me.I'll have to ponder this some more. Thank you. Ben.

Beavis68 · #7 11-22-2005, 01:01 PM

Interesting analysis Buzz. Thanks everyone.

Seems like a concensus, the biggest problem was pre-flop.

Not sure how much fold equity I had.

The BB had A334 with the 34 of clubs. I was really hoping he would fold on the flop.

UTG had A976 [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

UTG+1 had A267.

#8 11-22-2005, 02:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Like Bullet Dodger said, bad pre-flop call, rest fine. Why do you call this a brain fart hand? Explain further, please. Thanks. Ben.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree that it was a bad pre-flop call, and I would have personally pounded this hand to the river and then let it go when the flush came. I like the way this hand was played.

Pre-flop - Q-Q is not a great starting hand, especially from your position. However, when you can expect 50% of the table to see the flop, you are getting odds. With 50% or of a table calling, you can make some speculative plays.

Flop - you're gamble worked, but there's a catch, a flush draw has reared its ugly head. But the flush is not there, and the odds are it won't come. If only one person has two clubs, the flush will come 37.8% of the time. If one other person has a flush draw, it drops to around 31.6%. The bad news is with a pot this large, you are not chasing anyone out because they have the odds. Who cares? You shouldn't, and here's why.

Because you flopped a set, you have above a 35% chance of making a full house or better (i.e., 4 Q's) by the river. You had odds on every call. You also have an open ended straight draw, but not one that will be the nuts, but it still adds a small amount of value to your hand.

Turn - You have your straight, and still have ten outs for a full house or better. The flush draws I mentioned earlier, have nine to seven outs at the most. You're straight is not the greatest, but it may hold up because of the flush draw, as a weak-passive, would not want to attempt drawing against the flush.

River - that sucks, the flushes got lucky. Time to let it go

Some players try to play Omaha/8 as tight as they play hold'em. This isn't the most profitable way to play, but it does have a lower variance than hold'em. They way you played this (as would I) has a higher amount of variance, but your calls were all +EV until the river, even with a low hand out there. You will seldom scare a flush into folding, and you should be nearly certain someone has it-especially the way this hand was played.

There are two styles of Omaha, one style is tight, boring, lower profit, but lower variance.

The other style, is more aggressive, more fun, and has more variance, but not as much as you think if you just let go of hands. It's hard to do, especially when you see people taking it down with a measly two-pair, but do it anyway unless you have a real good read on your opponents. You should also remember its much harder to bluff the river in Omaha.

Don't feel bad about losses, at least not initially. You are developing a feel for the game. Losing is the best way to learn. It's how I learned to spot straights in hold'em, lost to them often in the beginning.

Beavis68 · #9 11-23-2005, 10:08 PM

Interesting perspective, since I feel I was more profitable before I really "learned" how to play the game.

#10 11-23-2005, 10:58 PM

Morphball, I hope you will post more. At least, when you're not completely missing the joke (as in the quads/top full post I put in Jorge's thread). Your analysis is very informative.

Also FWIW I enjoyed catching up on some of your posts in other forums... mind if I lift this analogy (awesome)?

"P.S.S. - did you know there's a magic word you can say that will give you a Royal Flush every time? There is, but in order to disprove you have to know the magic word, say it, and not get a Royal Flush. As only I (b/c I am god) know the magic word, you can never say the magic word and disprove this statement. Therefore it must be true."