Open Raise UTG (Poll)

[Wynton]

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Go here. Pokerroom Stat/calc page

Based on all the hands played at pokerroom. A huge database of hands. you can input the hand, how many player at the table, position, etc...and QTs has a higher EV then QJo.

In first position in a 6 handed game QTs has an EV of +.16. QJo in the same positon has an EV of <font color="red">-.14</font>. Basically a .3 BB swing.

These stats and charts are updated daily. Its a good resource, imo.

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Wow. I had no idea there would be such a disparity.

[oreogod]

actually I just corrected the numbers. I was reading hte wrong position. Now they reflect what the EV of UTG position is.

Its a great resource and as it is based on a huge database of hands. The chart is HERE if u dont want to bother with the calculator. Also intresting is the fact that in a large run of hands KTo is +.06 EV. Very intresting. Its a hand that doesnt fair well against re-raises and out of position-ness.

[Danenania]

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youre one of these guys who values QJo more than KTo?

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UTG in most games, yes.

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I saw that I was spewing with QJo and slowed down with it a lot. I still open KTo at most tables. I have no idea if this is logically consistant, but it's been working.

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Some smart people are telling me they're almost exactly the same in value, so I think I might start opening KTo too.

[Spicymoose]

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actually I just corrected the numbers. I was reading hte wrong position. Now they reflect what the EV of UTG position is.

Its a great resource and as it is based on a huge database of hands. The chart is HERE if u dont want to bother with the calculator. Also intresting is the fact that in a large run of hands KTo is +.06 EV. Very intresting. Its a hand that doesnt fair well against re-raises and out of position-ness.

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I think this chart is virtually useless. Just based on what they say the EV for 44 is...

UTG, MP, CO, Button
0.16 -0.09 0.27 0.03

The fact that the variance is that high, and that the EV doesn't increase with position, shows that the chart is significantly flawed. This is average for the general population, and not how you "should" be playing.

[Spicymoose]

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youre one of these guys who values QJo more than KTo?

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UTG in most games, yes.

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I saw that I was spewing with QJo and slowed down with it a lot. I still open KTo at most tables. I have no idea if this is logically consistant, but it's been working.

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Some smart people are telling me they're almost exactly the same in value, so I think I might start opening KTo too.

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You open with QJo?

[Danenania]

Ja. Most times.

The 40k are nearly all at 6-max. Im not disputing the small sample size at all. I'm just mentioning that in these hands it seems to work me, for whatever thats worth. It might work because of the tables I generally choose to play in, the cards that get flopped, the other hands I raise from that position, my table image, or even just running well with that hand. I cant say with any degree of certainty which or any of these things apply, and neither can anyone else.

[Spicymoose]

I can't see how opening QJo is correct, unless you are against the tightest of opponents. Although it is extremely hard to gauge these things, of course I could be completely wrong. But if you are opening QJo, it seems like that opens up the door to open Q9s, or K8s.... are you opening these UTG?

[oreogod]

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actually I just corrected the numbers. I was reading hte wrong position. Now they reflect what the EV of UTG position is.

Its a great resource and as it is based on a huge database of hands. The chart is HERE if u dont want to bother with the calculator. Also intresting is the fact that in a large run of hands KTo is +.06 EV. Very intresting. Its a hand that doesnt fair well against re-raises and out of position-ness.

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I think this chart is virtually useless. Just based on what they say the EV for 44 is...

UTG, MP, CO, Button
0.16 -0.09 0.27 0.03

The fact that the variance is that high, and that the EV doesn't increase with position, shows that the chart is significantly flawed. This is average for the general population, and not how you "should" be playing.

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I dont know homie, Ed Miller has used it in a few examples and has stated its a pretty great resource and something he encouraged others using. fact is, its recording every single hand played, whether by good players or bad and getting the average EV, as if u had a massive PT database. What is now, could very well be different in 100-200k+ hands.

[MicroBob]

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QTs - raise
JTs - raise (not standard)
T9s - fold (raise occasionally for shania)
QJo - fold (raise 25 percent of the time. This is a decent opening hand in MP/CO though)
KTo - fold
A9o - fold
ATs - raise
A8s - raise
A7s - fold (raise tighter games. I usually open this down to A5s in MP though)
66 - raise
55 - fold (raise 25-50 percent of the time)
77 - raise
44 - fold
KJo - raise
27o - I would rather shania raise one of the hands listed, like T9s or 55.

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I'm pretty close to Oreo's standards here.
Although i raise KTo and A9o about 35% of the time I'm guessing.




Here's a semi-weird take that I'm willing to get blasted for:

I've been experimenting with limping T9s down to 87s.
T9s is a limp-or-raise for me these days.
98s is a limp-of-fold.


I know the conventional thinking around here is that raise-or-fold is the way to play from UTG.
But with these medium suited-connectors is limping really so terrible?

Sample-size not big enough (and possibly never will be) to determine much based on my own win-rates here.
Just thinking things through.


One 'shania-like' aspect of it is that some 2+2 TAG's that i may be up against might immediately write me off as a weak player because limping UTG with ANYTHING has to automatically mean he can't be THAT good.

Otherwise, I just think they are okay hands for limping UTG on 6-max (particularly on loose-passive tables of course).