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#92
11-18-2005, 07:31 AM
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Re: Open Raise UTG (Poll)
[ QUOTE ] Go here. Pokerroom Stat/calc page Based on all the hands played at pokerroom. A huge database of hands. you can input the hand, how many player at the table, position, etc...and QTs has a higher EV then QJo. In first position in a 6 handed game QTs has an EV of +.40. QJo in the same positon has an EV of -.03. Basically a .37 BB swing. These stats and charts are updated daily. Its a good resource, imo. EDIT: edited the numbers I was reading the wrong position. The numbers have no been corrected to reflect the UTG position [/ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] fact is, its recording every single hand played [/ QUOTE ] Its not recording, it recorded over certain time period. These expected value stats ARE NOT UPDATED DAILY. If theres any confusion, then Im talking about 6 player ev stats They havent been updated in months. I dont know about the individual stats where you can look at specific hands at specific limits, Guess we can see if this info is the same in the future: " Total EV statistics for Q9 s Your query: Pocket cards: Q9 s Position: 3 Players: 6 Table limit: $1/2 Position Players 3 6 0.15 The total average for Q9 s is 0.06 (regardless of table limit, position and number of players)." Now, notice how Q9s is decent profit, but if you look at the $10/$20 limit figures its a big loser. If it was ongoing with monthly updates or something then it would be much more valuable information. 
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#93
11-18-2005, 07:32 AM
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Re: Open Raise (Definitive Poll)
Wow - I remember posting a hand a few months back where I raised QJo UTG. The intended subject matter was to do with later streets, but the whole thread got swallowed up in a huge QJo UTG debate. This pretty much swung me to quit playing it UTG, and play it (not 100%) from HJ.
As usual a lot of the debate is not proving anything, because so many of the marginal hands are dependent on table texture. The presence of a loose fish who will regularly put in an extra BB with 2nd-best hands takes a lot of the marginals into profit. Paying extra money PF to LAG/TAG players with such hands kills their implied odds, so they become -EV. Such a poll does not achieve any conclusive results but it may highlight the marginal hands here people naturally disagree - and these can be discussed further. Take T9s. The PR Chart makes this a clear winner from all positions, the hand looks too good to fold. In a game where you can count on 1 or 2 overlimps by limping, and where players won't automatically clock you for such a hand by your limp, it must be +EV to play. The question would be, is it better to limp and outplay post-flop or raise and maybe get 1 or 2 callers who wont fold the Flop or Turn with A-high etc.? Clearly in a more aggro/tougher game you are not going to limp and risk being isolated OOP with this hand. Getting 3-bet obviously sucks as well. Which kinda means open-limping T9s is gonna be +EV in the right games, and raising with it against weak/tight players can be +EV; as well as affecting shania. Use this poll to identify the marginals, then set about dissecting how and why table conditions affect that profitability.
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#94
11-18-2005, 09:10 AM
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Re: Open Raise (Definitive Poll)
[ QUOTE ]
i dont see how posts like this are worthwhile. youre just going back to the cookie cutter mold that its so important to stay away from [/ QUOTE ] I dont know what "cookie cutter mold" is (im swedish) but I 100% agree that we should stay away from it. Anyone who read one or two pokerbooks and apply what they say got decent preflopstandards. Next step is to understand why we play a certain hand. Today I limped in SB with 52o after a buttonlimp, I called in BB with 42s and I raised two limpers on button with J9o. I know why I did it and this why had nothing to do with following or not following a chart I had in the back of my head.
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#95
11-18-2005, 11:38 AM
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Re: Open Raise (Definitive Poll)
hi kiddo, cookie cutter mold is an american expression. a cookie cutter mold is something you use to make cookies into the exact shape you want them to appear and they cant look any different. its basically like saying you have "inside the box" thinking and is just generally referred to as a bad thing.
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#96
11-18-2005, 02:27 PM
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Re: Open Raise UTG (Poll)
Nearly 2:1 raise:
QTs, JTs Nearly 1:2 fold: QJo, KTo, A9o This poll clearly shows how there will be great games for a long time to come. This may be a landmark moment for poker. A landmark post! Rejoice!
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#97
11-18-2005, 02:41 PM
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Re: Open Raise UTG (Poll)
[ QUOTE ]
i find this discussion interesting now because in a full ring game i open QTs from UTG3 most of the time but i only open QJo from MP3. hrm... [/ QUOTE ] Oh me oh my, celebrate!
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#98
11-18-2005, 03:00 PM
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Re: Open Raise UTG (Poll)
[ QUOTE ]
Nearly 2:1 raise: QTs, JTs Nearly 1:2 fold: QJo, KTo, A9o This poll clearly shows how there will be great games for a long time to come. This may be a landmark moment for poker. A landmark post! Rejoice! [/ QUOTE ] yea these numbers really suprise me as well. i dont agree with a lot of them, but i think my argument factors in how i play specifically and as said before, everyone has their own playing style. i remember a sublime position stats thread a while back where a lot of people were mentioning how he should play more hands utg and less hands on the btn. he was completley confused why peopele were saying he should play less hands that are easy to play and add more difficult hands. i feel the same. if i have to play a really marginal hand, i want position. if you just jump in and start playing all the hands that players here are advocating, good luck. it takes a lot of skill. if i would give someone whose too tight preflop advice, i'd say you should work on increasing your vpip on the btn, not utg as a place to start. stealthcow-
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#99
11-18-2005, 03:15 PM
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Re: Open Raise UTG (Poll)
Joe,
Your posts in this thread feel like you're ignoring that this new, laggier style has been talked about a ton in HUSH as of late. I'm not saying that it's good or bad, but it feels like you're brushing off all the thought that's gone into this. I will say that I thought I was pretty agressive, and some of this seems over the top, but then I'm playing in a much different game than TStone.
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#100
11-18-2005, 03:16 PM
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Re: Open Raise UTG (Poll)
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] i find this discussion interesting now because in a full ring game i open QTs from UTG3 most of the time but i only open QJo from MP3. hrm... [/ QUOTE ] Oh me oh my, celebrate! [/ QUOTE ] As usual, a strong contribution by JT to the discussion.
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