I think that I don't raise often enough...

[tpir90036]

I am primarily a limit player but have been playing some more NL as of late thanks to the popularity of some bigger live games (5/10 & 10/20) local to me with regular terrible players. I do quite well in these games by semi-nut-peddling but I would like to squeeze out some more money if I can.

I am not going to give much of a read on these hands, and I realize that everything is situational but I want to make sure I am thinking about the right things. All action and stack sizes will be listed in BBs.

Hand 1, 8-handed:
Aggressive player (150BB stack) opens to 5 BB from EP, I (125BB stack) call in LP. with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
Flop: J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Aggro bets the pot. I call.


Hand 2, 7-handed:
Decent player (100BB stack) opens to 4 BB from EP, I (110BB stack) call in LP. with T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Flop: 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
EP bets the pot. I call.


Hand 3, 9-handed:
Very Aggro player (will make bets/raises on every street with good hands and bluffs alike if he senses weakness, 70BB stack) opens to 4 BB from EP, Passive MP (100 BB) calls. I (130 BB stack) call in LP with 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Flop: T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
EP bets the pot. MP folds. I call.


OK. Pros and cons to raising:

Pros:
- I probably have the best hand
- Take down the pot immediately and deny a free overcard
- Might not have to face a big 2nd barrell on the turn if I show weakness by just calling now
- Masks my bluffs and semi-bluffs since I am raising with made hands as well.

Cons:
- *** Will rarely get called by worse hands. In limit poker, hands like naked overcards will peel the flop and might even peel the turn. In NL this does not seem to be the case.... or am I giving my opponents too much credit? *** This is a big sticking point for me.
- Makes the pot bigger with a weak hand.
- I don't really define my hand vs. an aggro player who might 3-bet light.
- Should I really be that worried about a 6-outer?
- Deny myself a chance to spike my own outs if I get 3-bet by an overpair.

Sorry if this is a lot. But, sadly I am struggling to apply a very basic poker concept like raising to a different form of poker. I have a feeling I am over-complicating things for myself.

Thanks in advance,
tpir

[edge]

I'm not a limit player, but in NL, you definitely do not want someone to be able to put you on a very narrow range of hands. That means they play optimally on the later streets, when the bets are exponentially larger (unlike limit, where the later streets are much smaller compared to the pot). You can't play the same hands the same way every time. Sometimes you call the flop in order to make a judgment on the turn regarding taking the pot away. Sometimes you call to induce a bluffer to keep firing. In the same vein, sometimes you raise on a bluff and sometimes for value.

Flop play in NL is a lot like rock/paper/scissors. The continuation bet means absolutely nothing--it's just the standard move. From there, you can represent a hand by raising or calling, or you can just fold. When you make your move, your opponent guesses whether or not you're bluffing based on past hands and maybe a tell, and then makes his move to raise, call, or fold. If you pick the right throw (rock), you beat your opponent (scissors) and win the pot.

As far as the hands you posted, I pretty much never fold hand 1 or 2 straight-up. I'll raise or call depending on game texture and past hands with this guy and so on. There are some problems with flat calling a continuation bet though; some players will fire a second barrel with overcards/complete air, and some will check/fold. Against the latter, calling the flop can be a great move. Against the former, calling the flop with a mediocre hand can put you in a very tough spot on the turn. You basically have to know who you're playing against, or be able to make a reasonable guess.

[tpir90036]

Thanks for the response. I think what you said re: hand ranges is very important and something I was not paying enough attention to at this point. Most of the games I play in have bad players who either don't read hands well or don't even think on that level. I was always thinking about my opponents hand ranges.... but probably not thinking nearly enough about *my* range of hands for a given situation.

I kind of hoped this would generate a little bit more discussion. It's kind of abstract, but I didn't want to get too specific with the situations for a reason.

[AZK]

People hate multihand posts for some reason, but from the general look of things, I think you need to raise more.

Edit: I know my post is worthless. You going up to AC this weekend?

[tpir90036]

Yeah, I guess so. The point was not the hands per se... just the general idea and the thinking that went behind it. I didn't want to see responses of "Hand 1 = fold, hand 2 = call, etc..." I wanted to hear some "why"s. Edge hit most of it in his response I think.

I had planned on going to AC but I have some family crap to attend to...I figure it's going to be a zoo with the WPT going on anyway. Good luck if you play.

-tpir

Being in position makes this easy. Being out of position and just calling is the tough part [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

One thing you need to do is raise more often for information. Especially as you move up in higher cash games... you need to do more defining of your and your opponents hand a little early on.

Let's say on a pair board 8,8,3 you just smooth call a flop bet with 9,9...

What are you going to do when an Ace shows up on the turn or river... and an aggressive player.... who's figured you out makes a big beat?

[mgsimpleton]

more importantly, a raise/fold to reraise or give up/proceed with caution on the flop is much much cheaper than a call down on 3 streets.

[tpir90036]

I think this is dangerous advice if you are always making probe raises with weak hands looking to "find out where you stand." Someone can just as easily catch on to that and 3-bet you light.

I understand we want to get more money in the pot when we have the best hand and stop our opponent from hitting an overcard. But bloating the pot in fear of a 6-outer does not seem to be the way to go all the time. Thoughts?

[SpeakEasy]

I've been in this situation many times before. Here's how I've worked things out, after much trial and ERROR:

On the flop, when the opponent bets the flop (say 2/3 or pot sized bet, like your examples) I ask myself this: if I call this flop bet and he makes a similar bet on the turn, am I likely to call that turn bet also?

If the answer is yes, then I raise on the flop. This approach is primarily based on the adage "two ways to win the pot by betting, only one way to win the pot by calling," combined with the knowledge that those chips are probably going into the pot on the turn, anyway.

This has the general effect of ramping up your aggression, and letting the table know that they will regularly face a raise when they lead with the "standard" bet.

The answer to my critical question on the flop may depend on many variables, which you are already assessing:
--what does he have
--what does he think I have
--what cards on the turn will make me abandon ship, strengthen my hand, or make no difference in my position.

If, on balance, I would find myself likely wanting to call or raise on the turn, then I will use those chips to make a raise on the flop. Self-taught lesson in post-flop aggression. I can vividly remember several pots where, if I had simply raised on the flop, rather than calling the flop, turn, I would have immediately taken it down.