Moving up to $10-20-Prerequisite BB/100 in $5-10 6MAX??

[krishanleong]

A final but more subtle way to tell if you are ready is to compare your ideas to established posters. I can tell that I'm not ready for the 10/20 because Guy, Arkady, Jeff, Alobar and other hand read and think about the game at a higher level than I. Just reading what people posts gives you an idea about how strong a player posters are (and how strong you are).

Krishan

[kiddo]

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I'm in no hurry and I'd rather just put in a solid sample then move up.
The real question is should I be 2 or 3 tabling rather than 4-5-6 tabling?I know playing more than 3 tables is taking my winrate down.

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Good!

If u are serious with poker its a work, u should use all available information u can find and that includes looking at winrates after a large sample of hands.

Let other guys go with their feelings. There are tons of guys that start out at .50/1 and 6 months later they are 4tabling $15/30 and laugh at all the fishs and after 2 dry months they are "taking a break" because they run out of $.

Dont rush. I played 200K at 5/10 before moving up, not because I didnt think I could beat 10/20 but because I liked how much I won at 5/10 and I saw no reason to hurry up since I needed the money and didnt know if I would make more at new level.

When you move up, play less tables first 20K or something. Then its easier to adapt. I normally play 4, I played 2 at the beginning at 10/20.

If u win 1.7BB at 5/10 when 6tabling I guess u could move up. Take a stab at 10/20 with $3Ks or something and move down again if u hit bad cards or dont feel good about it.

For what is is worth, I made 3BB/100 at 5/10 over 200K and has made a bit below 2BB at 10/20 for 100K. I have been on my worst run ever last 2 months so in my dreams I hope I can do a little better at 10/20 but who knows.

[kiddo]

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You should be able to tell if your being outplayed at the new limit. I think win-rate requirements for moving up are rediculous since they are so unreliable. I value my intuitive feelings about a limit much more than win rate.

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What is this suppoused to mean? U honestly think that u can "feel" how much u are able to do at a higher level? If u make a living playing poker winrate is excatly what we should talk about.

What u can do at, lets say, 10/20 is very close related to how much you can do at 5/10. Someone winning 1.3BB/100 at 5/10 after 80K but "feeling" that they could do a lot better is doing a serious misstake.

After playing for years and years maybe u get a feeling for how much u can beat a certain game but not when u still are playing lowlimit poker.

[Guy McSucker]

[ QUOTE ]


Good!

If u are serious with poker its a work, u should use all available information u can find and that includes looking at winrates after a large sample of hands.

Let other guys go with their feelings. There are tons of guys that start out at .50/1 and 6 months later they are 4tabling $15/30 and laugh at all the fishs and after 2 dry months they are "taking a break" because they run out of $.


[/ QUOTE ]

Amen to that.

I should have remembered from the old days in the PL/NL forum that goodguy is king of large samples. If you can play 200k hands at >2BB/100 you can know for almost certain that you're beating the game very handily. As for me, I can't multitable, and I only get to play about 10 hours a week max, so amassing a huge sample size is out of my reach.

I think the best way to make money quickly in poker is to move up whenever your skill and bankroll allows. Things aren't that much tougher at higher limits, at least not yet [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Obviously, moving up to a limit you can't beat and staying there is suicide, but I firmly believe that you can make an accurate assessment of whether you're outplaying the field after a much smaller sample, as long as you understand the game properly and are honest with yourself.

Guy.

[Nikla]

I dont have alot to contribute with here, only point not yet mentioned as far as I could tell was moving up too slowly. If you're content with the money you make on a given limit chances are you'll be overstaying that particular limit. This is especially true if you're abit riskaversive.
I know I overstayed the $10-20 by atleast 3 months and it has cost me money.

-Nikla

[krishanleong]

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What is this suppoused to mean?

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What I mean is look at your opponents. Are they playing badly. Are they making obvious -EV plays that you can take advantage of. Or are they a new type of player that despite poor VP$IP and pfr stats play pretty well postflop and are not extremely fishy.

Are you lost more than 6 times every 100 hands? Are the TAGs at the new level outplaying you?

Win rate doesn't converge for a long time. That everyone can agree with. I think there are other indicators you can use to tell that you are ready to take a shot.

I'm stil in a 340 BB downswing at 5/10. Maybe I'm deluding myself but I think I am a longterm winner at this level despite a crappy BB/100. If I believed only in BB/100 I should have stepped down a while ago. But I think my game is good and the mistake my opponents make I know I take advantage of. I'm not confused more than 2-3 hands / 100 and I've had an experienced 5/10 player coach me for a while and tell me my game looks solid.

Kiddo, I appreciate that you spent 200K hands at 5/10. I feel pretty sure that you could have spent 10K hands at 10/20 after 100K hands of 5/10 and been able to tell based on feeling alone if you were good enough to beat the game.

Krishan

[goodguy_1]

thnx for the post with all those yum yum goodies -specifc stats!
[ QUOTE ]
If u are serious with poker its a work, u should use all available information u can find and that includes looking at winrates after a large sample of hands

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I wont move up until I have 100K.You can make serious money playing 2000 hands a day with rakeback even at 1.25bb/100 let alone 1.75 or 2.00.
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When you move up, play less tables first 20K or something. Then its easier to adapt. I normally play 4, I played 2 at the beginning at 10/20.



[/ QUOTE ] I started out at $5-10 just 3-tabling but when the games are good and there are multiple $75-$80+ pot average games ..I want to be in every game [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img].At most I 6-table I don't 8-table.These games are so good.It is not too difficult to get on 4-6 tables with 2-3 40%+VPIP players at each table-I love it and I've adjusted somewhat to the nasty swings.I want to tell you for anyone with a modicum of short LHE skills these $5-10 games blow away $3-6 LHE Full...and I have not run particualry well either.
If I did move up from here I would start $10-20 by 2 or 3- tabling..since I'm not ready this is premature speculation
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If u win 1.7BB at 5/10 when 6tabling I guess u could move up. Take a stab at 10/20 with $3Ks or something and move down again if u hit bad cards or dont feel good about it.

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I'm going to try and get that above 2.00bb/100 and on 100K+ hands then I'll re-evaluate.
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For what is is worth, I made 3BB/100 at 5/10 over 200K and has made a bit below 2BB at 10/20 for 100K. I have been on my worst run ever last 2 months so in my dreams I hope I can do a little better at 10/20 but who knows.


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thanks alot for that information.I am very biased to only really listen to people that have large samples unless it just obvious they have skills..RESPECT.

very nice 4 tabling at 95 hph that's $114 per hour at $5-10 and $152 per hour ar $10-20-sweeeet without rakeback !I hope things turn around for you!

[kiddo]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the best way to make money quickly in poker is to move up whenever your skill and bankroll allows.

I firmly believe that you can make an accurate assessment of whether you're outplaying the field after a much smaller sample, as long as you understand the game properly and are honest with yourself.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep, definetly. I agree with both that if u wanna make money quick u should move up fast to the level u can beat. And yes, u normally understand if u are beating the table u are sitting at or not.

But I think we also agree that there are a lot of guys moving up to fast. Suddenly they make $300/hour playing 15/30 full table. They see all the fishes and think it will never end. What they dont understand is that there are a 3-4 players at each table outplaying them badly, making their winrate much smaller then they have had so far.

I think one of the differences is if poker is your only income, then a steady becomes more important then playing at your maximum level against guys u are pretty sure u can beat. You want to be pretty sure u beat the next level for more money then the one u are playing at.

That is the reason I stayed at 5/10, not that I didnt think I could beat 10/20 because as u say, skill factor isnt that enourmos at higher levels. I didnt have more then 2 hours/day playing poker so if I prefered doing my +$100/hour instead of trying getting $150 at 10/20. (I really didnt have time then to learn how to beat 10/20 and my wife didnt have much of an income (starting up a new business).

[krishanleong]

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But I think we also agree that there are a lot of guys moving up to fast. Suddenly they make $300/hour playing 15/30 full table. They see all the fishes and think it will never end. What they dont understand is that there are a 3-4 players at each table outplaying them badly, making their winrate much smaller then they have had so far.

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So true, the difference between then and us is they are idiots. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] <font color="white"> At least I hope I'm not </font>

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I think one of the differences is if poker is your only income, then a steady becomes more important then playing at your maximum level against guys u are pretty sure u can beat. You want to be pretty sure u beat the next level for more money then the one u are playing at.

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But this gets into risk tolerance. The OP didn't didn't specify. I agree if you are risk averse, taking shots makes less sense.

Krishan

[goodguy_1]

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I'm still in a 340 BB downswing at 5/10

[/ QUOTE ] I have never had more than a 175 bb downswing playing 6MAX,5MAX,Short LHE at all the smaller limits-mostly $1-2,$2-4 and $3-6 about 150K hands.I'm not looking forward to 200 bb+ downswings.If I had a 340 bb downswing in $5-10 I would have to seriously re-evaluate my options..fact is If I had a more than 200-250 bb downswing.I would probably step down.But I play fairly tight my stats right now are 22.50/14.50/~3.00.My hourly standard devaition has gone down from ~$180 an hour to $150 an hour since I eliminated a number of marginal hands from my preflop hand selection..it has really helped.I also am still way too aggressive by my PT aggression numbers but these are coming down.I only moved up to $5-10 after beating games below it on huge samples at each level.Have you beaten smaller games on decent samples krishan?