Two hands for a limit newbie

TMFS9 · #1 01-24-2005, 04:04 PM

Just recently I am crossing over to limit from no limit. I have just started reading through SSHE for the second time and have also read HFTAP. So I feel I have most of the the theoretical basics down for limit but now I need the experience. Here are two hands that gave me a little trouble:

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO calls, Button folds, SB completes, Hero raises, UTG+1 calls, CO calls, SB calls.

Flop: (8 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, UTG+1 folds, CO calls, SB folds.

Turn: (5 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, CO calls.

River: (7 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 9 BB

I'm pretty sure that I was correct in raising preflop, and then betting out on the flop and turn because of such a strong draw, but on the river I hated to call this bet. Was it wrong or should I call this down to stop a busted draw bluff (ie lower flush draw) because I was getting 8:1 odds on the call.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 folds, MP1 raises, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO calls, Button folds, Hero calls, BB folds, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (9 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 bets, CO folds, Hero raises, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls.

Turn: (6.50 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, MP1 calls.

River: (8.50 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, MP1 calls.

Final Pot: 10.50 BB

Here's a problem I have been having in playing medium PP's as overpairs. I think just calling preflop is the right play or should I have 3 bet it preflop, which would have given me more information on what I was up against? By villan just calling my check raise on the flop is it normally correct to assume this as overcards?

Sent · #2 01-24-2005, 04:13 PM

In Hand 1 I wouldn't plan on check/calling the river unless you know he is one to bluff a lot. Either bet it out or check/fold. K high doesnt have any SD value. Any A beats you, etc.

In Hand 2 I think calling PF is fine, but TT is an awesome hand and you can 3bet PF and take control if you wish. River A wasnt nice but you can't wimp out there, good stuff.

-Sent

shadow29 · #3 01-24-2005, 04:15 PM

1. Move to .5/1 if you're a limit newbie.
2. Post hands one at a time.

Hand 1: Check/call turn, check/fold river. Your hand is too weak to call on the river. On the turn, you're heads up, so your flush draw bet doesn't have an edge in pot equity. Moreover, something tells me that your fold equity is not very high. Villain's JTo is goot!

Hand 2: I might be inclined to check/call river because getting raised here sucks. Nice hand other than that, however.

shadow29 · #4 01-24-2005, 04:16 PM

Too quick for me, chief! [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

stir · #5 01-24-2005, 04:32 PM

Since you are new to this, I'm guessing you did not have a read on the CO, however if you felt he was likely to bet the flop, I would check the flop, then c/r after he bets as a semi-bluff in hopes a getting the free card on the turn.

Other comment is there is no way you should have called the river as weak as your hand was; you are overly concerned about a bluff. In my experience bluffs will occur on the flop and turn, or as a blind steal. They are infrequent on the river unless you are dealing with a maniac.

Benman · #6 01-24-2005, 04:41 PM

I would have bet the river on the first hand. Your bluff only has to be successful more than one time in eight to be profitable, and I guarantee you it will be considering the aggression you've shown. When I've been betting a draw the whole way, and fail to get there, I always bet the river if I have less than an ace overcard in my hand. That way I cause some better busted draws to fold, particularly those with an ace in their hand. What if the guy has a club draw also, with ace high? Checking here and allowing him to beat you in a showdown is an awful result. Depending on your opponent you might also cause some small pair type hands to fold, even though they shouldn't. If I miss my draw but have nuts to no pair in my hand, like an ace and another high card, I'm less likely to bluff the river because I might win a showdown. Bottom line, one of the big reasons you semi-bluff your draws against a single opponent, as you did on the turn, is the folding equity that you have not just on the turn but on the river. Bluffing simply has a positive expectation on that bet, so take it.

easypete · #7 01-24-2005, 04:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Too quick for me, chief! [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Had you all beat, but then my boss walked in... didn't hit submit fast enough.

TMFS9 · #8 01-24-2005, 05:18 PM

Wouldn't it be impossible to get a free card on the turn considering that the CO has position on me? One reason for leading out here is in hopes that I can either take the pot down (probably unlikely with 3 players) and build a bigger pot. Going for the checkraise I think there are two probable and unappealing situations one is it is check all the way through and I'm missing a huge pot equity edge. Secondly a raise from late position and then if I checkraise I'm facing the other players with calling two cold thereby possibly limiting the field. Is my thinking flawed in any way here in leading out on the flop?

stir · #9 01-24-2005, 06:48 PM

First off I don't believe in absolutes in poker. Saying it is "impossible" is faulty thinking in my opinion. Unless you have a solid read otherwise, it is quite possible CO could check the turn, afraid of another c/r or simply because his hand is not that strong. I think you will find with more hands at lo-limit that the passive players far outweigh the agg's.

On another point I will agree with you: it is improbable you will win this pot betting out on the flop - it's lo-limit - people play lo-limit so they can get to see that turn card cheaply! You will find that very few fold on the flop HU for one small bet, let alone 3 opponents.

I do not consider the pot equity "huge" here; we are only discussing a c/r on the flop implying the loss of 3-4 small bets if checked through. That's not "huge", particularly when you will be able to bet your made flush on the two BB streets to come.

Finally you mention a raise from late positon. I don't see any evidence to think there is a raise coming behind you, based on p-f action and a non-scary board (no A, or K or pair). More likely is a check to the CO, he bets, and you have the c/r opportunity.

TMFS9 · #10 01-24-2005, 07:51 PM

I understand what you are saying about the CO being afraid of another checkraise, but what I was referring to was you can not give yourself a free card in early positon.

TOP Quote:
[ QUOTE ]
When a hand is reduced to two opponents, the player who acts first cannot give himself a free card, but the player who acts second can.

[/ QUOTE ]

And as far a huge, maybe a huge is not the right word but with the second nut flush draw, a gutbuster straight, and two over cards i'm greater than a 50% favorite against any paired hands (less than Jacks), which means I'm passing up a fair amount of equity if the flop is checked through.