88 on small coordinated board with a huge field

[kurosh]

Party .5/1
Hero is in CO
Dealt to Hero [ 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ]

Jessica_J calls [$0.5].
AznPiranha calls [$0.5].
LikaMaAce calls [$0.5].
lovelygirl01 calls [$0.5].
bravest_35 calls [$0.5].
kurosh calls [$0.5].
Cruznby353 folds.
Wildatsfsu calls [$0.25].
Lonzel checks.

** Dealing Flop ** [ 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ]
Wildatsfsu checks.
Lonzel checks.
Jessica_J checks.
AznPiranha checks.
LikaMaAce checks.
lovelygirl01 checks.
bravest_35 checks.
Hero checks.


** Dealing Turn ** [ 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ]
Wildatsfsu bets [$1].
Lonzel folds.
Jessica_J folds.
AznPiranha calls [$1].
LikaMaAce calls [$1].
lovelygirl01 folds.
bravest_35 calls [$1].
Hero raises [$2].
Wildatsfsu calls [$1].
AznPiranha folds.
LikaMaAce calls [$1].
bravest_35 calls [$1].


** Dealing River ** [ 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ]
Wildatsfsu checks.
LikaMaAce checks.
bravest_35 checks.
Hero bets [$1].
Wildatsfsu calls [$1].
LikaMaAce folds.
bravest_35 folds.

This is my line of thought. I should have raised PF because of set odds. There's mistake #1. On the flop, I don't raise closing the action because there are so many cards that would probably give someone a better hand and no one will fold for 1 SB in that big of a pot. I choose to wait and see if the next card is a safe card. It is, so I raise. The river is a scare because it completes straight and flush draws. But everyone checks to me so I take the chance of a check-raise and bet out anyway. That might be a mistake too.

[kurosh]

Why is no one replying? Do I need to make it pretty?

Party .5/1
Hero is in CO
Dealt to Hero [ 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ]

UTG calls. UTG+1 calls. EP calls. MP calls. LP calls. <font color="red">Hero calls.</font> Button folds. SB calls. BB checks.

** Dealing Flop ** [ 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ] (4BB)
SB checks. BB checks. UTG checks. UTG+1 checks. EP checks. MP checks. LP checks. <font color="red">Hero checks.</font>


** Dealing Turn ** [ 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ] (4 BB)
SB bets. BB folds. UTG folds. UTG+1 calls. EP calls. MP folds. LP calls. <font color="red">Hero raises.</font> SB calls. UTG+1 folds. EP calls. LP calls.


** Dealing River ** [ 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ] (13 BB)
SB checks. EP checks. LP checks. <font color="red">Hero bets.</font> SB calls. EP folds. LP folds.

[PhatPots]

ur right, you should have made it pretty and should have raised that preflop. You should also have bet that flop in this situation. If there were overcards, you might want to take a free card and hit your set, but not in this situation. You don't want to give all those overcards a free card. ANY overcard is probably going to scare you with that many people in the pot.

The turn: I like your raise because you probably have the best hand at this point, but I might fear that the SB has the 3, and you won't really knock anyone out. Although you did knock out UTG, usually people will call one more bet once they are in for one bet. But you are making those with overcards pay.

The River: I have mixed feelings about you betting this. That are a lot of cards that can beat you and there are a lot of people in the pot, but then again someone would probably bet out if they made a straight or a flush. I would probably check on the end.

[Sent]

Why would he want to raise this PF, other than to get a freecard, that's about it. Bet the flop when they check to you, no reason to think you are behind, dont give a freecard when you are ahead like this

-Sent

[TheHybrid144]

The PF limp isn't a strong move, but the raise isn't crucial to your play with mid pocket pairs. The worst move here in my mind is the check on the flop. You cannot give a free card especially when you have the best hand and there are 2 to a flush on the flop.

[TheHybrid144]

I believe the logic for raising with a Mid PP here is to build up a very large multi-way pot to get paid off with if a set is made. With a projected 7-8 players he may have a pot equity edge here.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
Why would he want to raise this PF, other than to get a freecard, that's about it. Bet the flop when they check to you, no reason to think you are behind, dont give a freecard when you are ahead like this

-Sent

[/ QUOTE ]
Buying the button is goot. I'm a position whore though. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Yeah, I like a raise preflop. Not necessarily just because of "set odds" but because of a number of reasons: mostly, for me, I want to buy the button and be known as the preflop aggressor. When an Ace flops and it's bet into me, it makes my decision a bit easier. I'll often get to see the turn for free here when I need to, and can still bet when I flop my set. I'm not sure there's a huge difference between limping and raising preflop, but I'm raising so many hands here preflop (with this many limpers, I'm raising suited connectors 89s+, as well as my other standard raising hands)

Bet this flop. Turn raise goot. Good value bet on the river; were you taking a bet/fold line here?

Rob

[kurosh]

Everyone seems to agree to bet on the flop. However, I'm convinced that is completely wrong. See the SSH section on overpairs (185-189). This was a big part of my play that I changed because of the book. If I bet out on the flop, most people will call with ANYTHING even just one overcard because they're getting great odds. Any 9, T, J, Q, K, A, or [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] would most likely make my hand not good. That concept of giving a free card doesn't really apply here. Like SSH says, it IS +EV to bet on the flop because I have the best hand, but it is MORE +EV to bet on the turn when I see a safe card because I have more pot equity and I reduce their odds to draw, giving incorrect odds to gutshots and overcards.

[JoshuaD]

[ QUOTE ]
Everyone seems to agree to bet on the flop. However, I'm convinced that is completely wrong. See the SSH section on overpairs (185-189). This was a big part of my play that I changed because of the book. If I bet out on the flop, most people will call with ANYTHING even just one overcard because they're getting great odds. Any 9, T, J, Q, K, A, or [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] would most likely make my hand not good. That concept of giving a free card doesn't really apply here. Like SSH says, it IS +EV to bet on the flop because I have the best hand, but it is MORE +EV to bet on the turn when I see a safe card because I have more pot equity and I reduce their odds to draw, giving incorrect odds to gutshots and overcards.

[/ QUOTE ]

I had this argument out with entity and some others a long while back in a very similar situation. I lost. I've been meaning to resurface the argument after I read that section. Let me find a link to that one so we can see what the right play is.

edit: Here's the thread. These two hands are similar, and I'm still not sure what the right move is.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
Everyone seems to agree to bet on the flop. However, I'm convinced that is completely wrong. See the SSH section on overpairs (185-189). This was a big part of my play that I changed because of the book. If I bet out on the flop, most people will call with ANYTHING even just one overcard because they're getting great odds. Any 9, T, J, Q, K, A, or [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] would most likely make my hand not good. That concept of giving a free card doesn't really apply here. Like SSH says, it IS +EV to bet on the flop because I have the best hand, but it is MORE +EV to bet on the turn when I see a safe card because I have more pot equity and I reduce their odds to draw, giving incorrect odds to gutshots and overcards.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think the question is usually whether it is better to raise the flop vs. raising the turn; not check the flop vs. betting the turn.

Your hand is pretty damned vulnerable, though not as much as you make it out to be -- 9's, T's, and J's aren't really that bad of cards, and diamonds aren't either. As is, you're offering 9:1 to anyone on the flop if you bet, which means they should call with 5 outs or more, but not with hands like A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].

Checking vs. betting is one argument, raising vs. calling is another. I'm not sure which is better here, but I prefer betting because it gives your opponents limited odds to draw, rather than infinite odds, and it doesn't prevent you from betting the turn, which would give your opponents around 5:1-7:1 to draw.

I'll have to take a better look at this when I get back, but I'm still leaning toward thinking betting is best.