PROPOSAL (this affects you guys, please read): mid- and high- forums

[paperboyNC]

I like the idea:

Micro: up to 1/2
Small: 2/4 to 5/10 (higher limits live)
Mid: 10/20 to 20/40
High: 30/60+

[shant]

I've given it some more thought and think it's not a bad idea. I would be fine with whichever way things went.

[W. Deranged]

All right, so I got a bunch to say about this:

I think it is important to maintain the continuity of forums and not to have too many of them. The reason is that forums thrive on having a core of consistent, competent, intelligent, and committed posters. New posters can read and get a sense of who forms that core. Their ideas dictate discussions and can help to keep the forum an arena for intelligent discussion rather than sporadic comment-making. In small stakes I feel that "core" has in recent months gotten quite strong (recovering from the well-documented disaster of the early summer): Jason, Shant, Harv, Flair, Evan, Rob (Entity), BigEndian, Nick Royale, Hobbs, Brett, and so forth.

Interestingly, many of these players play in limits that at least would be considered for mid-limits. Many of us post online hands at the 10/20 and 15/30 level. Particularly after Vegas, people posted hands at 30/60 live (which is clearly within the realm of mid-high) and I know for a fact that within the past week one Cantabrigian poster posted a couple of hands played at the Foxwoods 50/100.

I've found the discussion of the hands at those mid-limits to be quite intelligent, personally. With the exception of the hands of one notable poster who was a long-time small stakes poster who made a dramatic exit from the forum in June, hands played in 15/30 live games and even similar online often don't get intelligent discussion in mid-high.

What concerns me about creating a new "mid" forum is that much of the strength of the small stakes forum would be lost. I feel that this forum has so much to offer as it forms the crucial educational point for players who are beyond the basics but really need to learn the crucial skills necessary to becoming long-term winning players. Mid-high discussions are wonderful but much of what they offer pertains to skills involved ONLY at the higher levels (metagame things, mixing up play, advanced hand-reading skills, attacking particular kinds of aggressive players like DERB, etc...)

Another thing to consider is the way that movement in limits works at the small stakes level. It is quite possible for committed, skilled small stakes players to move between limits quite quickly. For most, the 10/20 to 20/40 online level is quite attainable. I think it is very useful to have a resource for players moving through the limits to discuss hands, and not to feel constantly forced to change forums and have to develop a new sense of who to listen to and learn new nomenclature and so on. As the limits get higher, it becomes harder to move between them. My fear is that the "small" forum would just become a very transient stop-over point for players on the way to "mid."

The conclusion is that I think that such a four-level structure would cause the death of the "small" forum. The "mid" forum would be awesome, and, if this whole thing went into effect, I'd probably just go ahead and make my new home there, because that's where many of my favorite fellow posters would go and that's probably more reflective of the limits I play (though I play 5/10 to 10/20 online and anywhere from 10/20 to 30/60 live).

My personal preference would actually just be a slight realignment. I think 2/4 should probably go in micros, and I think 20/40 and down should stay in what is now "Small Stakes." I think this new forum should be retitled the "Small-Mid Forum," and the forum above us for all the fourth-level thinkers renamed simply "High Stakes Limit Hold'em."

Just my two cents.

Oh, and I think that there should be some effort made to delineate how live limits relate to online limits. I think everyone would agree that 15/30 live hands should be posted in small stakes.

[brettbrettr]

[ QUOTE ]
All right, so I got a bunch to say about this:

[/ QUOTE ]

Shocker.

[W. Deranged]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
All right, so I got a bunch to say about this:

[/ QUOTE ]

Shocker.

[/ QUOTE ]

[img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[TimsterToo]

I'm all for this.

I do think that the posters from higher levels should every now and again have a quick look in the lower and see if you could answer some questions. I'm reasonably a noob myself but I try to have a look in "General" and "Beginners" and answer some stuff just to help the newbies out. If a couple can get this in your routine it would make sure that the information at least leaks down a bit.

I do feel that I would feel more at home in small stakes if it would be confined to 2/4 - 5/10ish

[ellipse_87]

If there are players of a certain limit who need a new home because they can't get the feedback everyone else gets, then of course they have to be accommodated.

But the limit levels are very crude proxies for the quality of the strategy discussions. Some 2/4 players are at the end of their first year, some have money and just started out, some are very good players re-building bankroll.

The three forums now really translate to Beginning, Intermediate, and Advanced.

I think it would be cool if the forums (whether 3 or 4) were to be re-named in this way, with a required field where posters identified the stakes and site for the hand.

[Luv2DriveTT]

A significant part of the problem is not the stakes, its the quality of play. As we all know 2/4 online is closer to 10/20 live than it is to 2/4 live.

Regardless, I'm going with the flow.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[WillMagic]

I don't really see a need to split the forums...SS is really good right now as is. Lots of good posters and intelligent discussions. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Will

[uw_madtown]

[ QUOTE ]
Oh, and I think that there should be some effort made to delineate how live limits relate to online limits. I think everyone would agree that 15/30 live hands should be posted in small stakes.

[/ QUOTE ]

I stopped reading most of your post because it was long and I disagreed with what I read, but I [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] this part and I think it'd be important for stickies in each forum what belongs where -- for both online and live hands. For example, micros should probably be 1/2 and lower online, 4/8 and lower live. SS should be 2/4 - 5/10 online, 5/10 - 20/40 live. MS should be 10/20 - 20/40 online, HS should be 30/60+ online (didn't do live limits for those last ones as I'm not sure where they'd divide at).

Anyway.

My opinion is that a lot of 10/20 - 20/40 players are clamoring for a clear place to post their hands. They feel they're unwelcome in MHS, and they feel that while SS generates some good discussion, the hands feel out of place here. I think that makes sense and I think a MHS split in the vein discussed will alleviate that problem and take a little traffic off SS (usually a good thing).

Everyone concerned about losing the community of SS (which I [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] as most of us do) probably shouldn't be. A lot of the people named as central players also have started playing more 6m than full, but they still read and post here. They may not post hands in SS much (if at all) if a MH forum is made, but many will still read and respond to threads here. And if you're eager to read their hands, just read the MH forum -- and you'll probably see more hands than you do now, because they won't be hesitant to post them.

While I think many people do identify a certain forum on 2p2 as "home," whether it be micros, SS, MHS, HUSH, the Zoo, or OOT for that matter, I don't think you necessarily "lose" posters when they move up, or a new forum alignment comes in.

Look at Entity -- dude has posted a ton in micros and small stakes even after moving to mid-stakes shorthanded games. Same can be said for lots of others and I won't list in fear of leaving someone out, but he's a great example.

Anyway, :thumbsup: to the split of MHS. I don't read it much now unless someone links me to a thread, but I can imagine reading MH a lot given the posters likely to populate it. Also, big [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] to TStone for his NVG thread that seems to have finally put a lot of these forum changes into action. I hope they also follow through with that Events forum he mentioned.