getting donk bet on the flop

[jdl22]

Instead of just posting a hand here I thought I would try to get a more general discussion going.

Consider the following situation which is very common (I'm taking a shot at 5/10 and it's very common at 5/10 relative to 3/6 it seems):
You open raise with some two big cards hand and it's folded to the BB. Flop comes three small unpaired cards and BB bets out.

This situation has for me become the new "getting raised on the turn," I get really uncomfortable when it happens and often have little clue what to do (I think my turn play is much improved now thanks to you guys). Question is, what are you thinking about here?
Obviously I would look at how tight BB is versus a raise. Most people in these games seem to almost always, if not always, call from the bb here. Also, you would hopefully have some sort of read on whether the bb has done this before. Again a lot of players seem to always donk bet here. Finally, how do they play when raised? Some three bet and will bet out again after you cap. Many call your raise and donk it again on the turn. The guys I like will call and check the turn almost no matter what they have.

So other than that and factors surrounding your hand (do you have backdoor or gutshot straight draws for example) am I missing anything?

What have you found to be the best line against guys that will pretty much call any two preflop, donk bet most flops, and continue donk betting if they have any piece as long as no ace comes (in which case they'll check/call)?

How do you deal with the guys that go into all out attack mode assuming you've missed your overs?

A slight change in the scenario is both blinds calling, sb donking, bb calling and the action being to you. How does your thought process differ here?

[New001]

It's impossible to tell without knowing the player. Some players will donk anytime they pair their cards, sometimes they'll donk on complete bluffs, or draws, or whatever. The street also matters too. Maybe try looking up one of these players early in your session to get an idea of what kind of hand they're doing it with, and then adjust to that later.

For a more general answer, HU I tend to peel the flop a lot when I've got overcards, and I'll often raise it if I want to clear out people behind me. It depends on how draw-heavy the board is.

[TTChamp]

I'm fighting the same battle right now. I made this post earlier, so you might gain something form it: post


Here is the thought process I have been using:

1. Is the guy a total moron that will donk just for the sake of donking. If so raise and find out where you are.

2. Does the board have draws? I am more likely to fold against a donk on a board like: J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Where as I am less likely to believe a donk on a board like J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. On that board, I thnk it is worth seeing the turn because of the possibility of a flush draw or str8 draw donking.

3. The possibilities in my hand. If my only draw is to a pair I am more likely to fold. If I have gut shots or BD flush draws I am more likely to raise or call. One example: Raising a donk bet on a board of 10 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]is better if you have A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] than if you have A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].

Anyway, that is how I have been approaching it. If otheres see errors in my thinking please post. One problem is that if I stick around more often when the board has draws, then I may get beat even if I pair up on the turn. My gut tells me that for a single hand the best thing to do is fold. The problem is if you fold everytime, everyone will donk you.

[LoaferGee12]

Not that this helps you at all, but this kills me as well.

[yellowjack]

To counter these donkbets I try to play my overpair and top pair hands similarly. This involves calling the flop, bet/calling the turn, and bet/raising the river.

With overcards I mix it up between raising the flop and checking the turn, and calling flop & folding the river UI. This is because I've found most donkbets been from passive fish who have hit a pair on the flop and bet out the flop to build a pot, and then calling down regardless of what I do.
I'm only playing 2/4 so I have no idea how effective/ineffective this is in the long run.

I've run into very few players who have bet out the flop, called the raise, and bet out the river (after I check behind the turn) without some sort of pair.

What lines have you tried against the donk bets?

Generally flop donks at 5-10 indicate a pair.
Generally turn donks at 5-10 indicate a draw.

Vs these players I've found that raising for freecards on the flop works well. (Also, if they donk the turn you can sometiems call without odds to do so since you know your ace high wins if their flush draw doesnt come in.)
Generally when I have something worthwhile like a good pair, I just call the flop and bet or raise the turn.

If they start to catch on you can mix it up a bit, and its not to hard to do so. If they get frustrated and start being more aggro, this is good for you to - This leads to some putting in waaaay too many bets with their hands and paying you off bigtime.

Vs the type that donks the flop constnatly with air, I tend to raise for freecards even more, since sometimes they will fold to your freecard raise. If they catch on to this one, which some will, just start calling their reraise and raising the turn again with your goods. You have position, you have the advantage.

I dont like constantly waiting till the river to let them know. Sometimes you miss out on a lot of bets here, especially when they just check or call the river. The turn is a much better place to do it. You have the possibility of getting more action (turn + river = 2streets), AND, its cheaper to make moves on the turn also (since in order to make a move on the river, you have to already go through the turn bet)

[yellowjack]

[ QUOTE ]
I dont like constantly waiting till the river to let them know. Sometimes you miss out on a lot of bets here, especially when they just check or call the river. The turn is a much better place to do it. You have the possibility of getting more action (turn + river = 2streets), AND, its cheaper to make moves on the turn also (since in order to make a move on the river, you have to already go through the turn bet)

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a good point. I have typically waited to the river to raise because some aggro players will fold when raised. I'm going to making this more player dependent then, where I'm leaning towards raising the turn vs. passive players. Thanks.

[wdcbooks]

I have found this to be difficult as well, and I think there is an answer other than look at the player. Let's face it, we will rarely play enough hands against the same player (especially on Party) to know for certain what the donk bet means against each specific individual.

I often find players betting a weak ace for value figuring you either have weaker overcards or will fold a better ace on the flop or turn. Sometimes it means something like bottom pair or a draw. The thing all those have in common is that they are hands that don't want to face a raise. Depending on the strength of my hand I like to raise the flop and make the decision to bet or check on the turn.

The flop donkbet is a wonderful tool when used correctly. Many players take it as a slur to their manhood, so I often donkbet the flop with a very strong hand to entice a raise. If I am called I can check the turn and usually get a check raise in.

ps. Has anyone ever noticed the bizarre cousin to this practice? After I raise preflop I occasionally get donkbetted when an ace flops. I invariably raise and 3/4 of the time they just fold. I often wonder what the thought process is there.

[Arnfinn Madsen]

It is extremely opponent based, but on 5/10 given insufficient reads I have found that when done by good or semigood players they most likely have a marginal hand, meaning low pocket pair (not set) or hitting middle or bottom pair on flop. They are insecure and bet to get information at where they are and this makes it exploitable (call the flop, raise the turn as a bluff etc.). Few players seem to do it on draws. When fish do it they might have marginal hands, but also top pair, two pair or set.