Flop second nut flush....

[Go Blue]

Sorry, no HH available here...just started playing on Paradise so no reads or anything like that. The game is limit .5/1 omaha8.

JTJT (2 spades) in the SB, I complete after several limpers. Flop is AQx all spades.

I check, and by the time it gets back to me, it's been bet and raised. I fold. I hate playing to second best hands.

Needless to say, the turn was the king of spades. So is this a clear fold or what? I figured that even if I did have the best hand there, I was vulnerable to boat outs.

Thanks [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

[bodie]

Go Blue

That's what makes O8 so much fun! On the flop you have:
a) 2nd nut flush draw
b) royal flush draw
c) nut straight draw
d) you didn't mention if the "x" card was low or not, if it wasn't then players drawing to a low might have been pushed out by the raise (maybe that's why it was raised? Perhaps someone was representing a K high flush, drawing to a straight and wanting to push out flush draws? It's hard to say)

You have to call a bet and a raise - but you have alot of possibilities. You weren't familiar with your opponents yet to read their betting at all - so you're stuck with the decision. Considering that it's such a low-limit game, I'm sure I would have called, just to see the turn. I might even reraise to push out anyone with pairs who might be hoping for the board to pair.

[Go Blue]

[ QUOTE ]
Go Blue

That's what makes O8 so much fun! On the flop you have:
a) 2nd nut flush draw
b) royal flush draw
c) nut straight draw
d) you didn't mention if the "x" card was low or not, if it wasn't then players drawing to a low might have been pushed out by the raise (maybe that's why it was raised? Perhaps someone was representing a K high flush, drawing to a straight and wanting to push out flush draws? It's hard to say)

You have to call a bet and a raise - but you have alot of possibilities. You weren't familiar with your opponents yet to read their betting at all - so you're stuck with the decision. Considering that it's such a low-limit game, I'm sure I would have called, just to see the turn. I might even reraise to push out anyone with pairs who might be hoping for the board to pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bodie,

I disagree with you in this case, at least to a certain point. First of all, the "x" was, in fact, a low card. Hence, had my flush held up, I would have likely received only half of the pot. Secondly, the nut straight draw is void here, as I already flopped a flush. Third, the second nut flush (not a draw by the way, it was a made flush), is exactly that...the SECOND nuts. Call me a wimp if you want, but I really do hate calling 2 bets cold with a non-nut hand or draw. Finally, my main concern was that someone likely had trips and there are so any ways that my flush could have lost. I think that part of playing this game is being cautious and selective, yet agressive with good hands and jamming the pot. This is something I could not not unless my miracle card (king of spades came).

Anyway, that's why I folded. I am very curious to get some more responces here. Thanks. [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

[PollyEmory]

How many people still in the pot when the betting gets back to you?
With several limpers pre-flop and several people calling two bets on the flop, that's a pretty big pot to give up on with a hand like yours.

I tend to play overly aggressively after the flop but if I checked it, I'd prob three-bet it when it got back to me and see what develops. I'm looking forward to reading why this would be a really really terrible idea. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Also, I noticed on paradise players tend to get aggressive with less then the nuts. While on Party you'll get calldowns with second nut lows, in a well attended pot, usually if someone's raising, it's with the nuts or a draw to the nuts. On Paradise, I think you'd lose money folding the flush in this situation.
--Polly

[Ironman]

Here are the facts as I see them...just to drive it home.

Second nut flush...raises and reraises in front of you.

And you are not closing the betting.

It hasn't happened yet, but there is a good possibility you will be playing for half the pot.

You have not put much money in yet.

I would fold this as well.

If that K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] doesn't come on the turn, it is likely that you are calling raises and reraises right through the river...all for second nut flush.

Dave

[bodie]

go blue,

Sorry, I didn't see that the "x" card was also a spade - I still say that, considering the low stakes, I might be interested in seeing the next card - you had already flopped the flush so didn't have to worry about drawing for it as well as not having the nut flush.
I do agree though that if "x" was indeed a low card it would give me pause, because odds are likely that you are playing for only half the pot anyway - and as Dave said you are not in favorable position.
I don't like betting with 2nd nut low, but adding the fact that you also flopped 4 to the Royal as well as 2nd nut flush, it would be hard not to want to play it out, meanwhile praying that the board doesn't pair.
It's taking a chance but again, given the low stakes - I might just want to take that chance with this hand. As always "it depends" - on how I'd been doing up until then, etc.

[Beavis68]

Pretty easy fold to me. At best you are up against a set, and even if you hit your you flush you will still lose ~30% or so to a boat, and, as stated, you will lose have the pot a decent amount of time even when you have the best hand AND it holds up.

Look at it this way, there are only 12 cards that could come on the turn that will not enable a low or pair the board.