The Crusades

Cyrus · #1 12-01-2005, 08:23 PM

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You ought perhaps to read some Orianna Fallaci (...)

[/ QUOTE ] Gawd, this brings back memories! I was reading that Italian reporter's over-the-top stuff way, way back in the 70s! Aren't you supposed to be over her crudities yet?

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Spain ... were ... under a form of religio-fascistic control, a type of totalitarianism.

[/ QUOTE ]Funny how that period and that region produced some of the most exquisite achievements in art and science!

When you get some time off reading yer Ayn Rand, google up "algorithm", to check out the etymology and what kind of "religio-fascist" (sic) was behind it.

MMMMMM · #2 12-01-2005, 08:42 PM

Cyrus, I don't read Ayn Rand; sorry to disappoint. I haven't really read Orianna Fallaci either, but I strongly suspect some folks would benefit from reading more of ANY author who is firmly against totalitarianism/fascism.

Also, whatever the art, etc. which the 11th century produced has NOTHING to do with whether or not Islam is an absolutist ideology.

You guys just don't realize the inherent evils of fascism, absloutist ideology, totalitarianism, etc.--that's the only explanation I can come up with for why you guys don't TOTALLY PAN systems which are based on such things.

Well, to each his own. You enjoy your croissants; I'll take freedom any day over the biggest croissant in ther world. Even with cheese.

Freedom is FAR more important than Art.

DVaut1 · #3 12-01-2005, 08:45 PM

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You guys just don't realize the inherent evils of fascism, absloutist ideology, totalitarianism, etc.--that's the only explanation I can come up with for why you guys don't TOTALLY PAN systems which are based on such things.

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Or maybe it's just that you're wrong. That's another explanation you should have come up with.

Failing to might indicate some other, larger problems. I'll let Nuts4Dawgs elaborate.

#4 12-01-2005, 09:31 PM

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You guys just don't realize the inherent evils of fascism, absloutist ideology, totalitarianism, etc.--that's the only explanation I can come up with for why you guys don't TOTALLY PAN systems which are based on such things.

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Or maybe it's just that you're wrong. That's another explanation you should have come up with.

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On the one hand, DVault1, he may be right. Fascism, absolutist ideology, and totalitarianism are evil. According you to, however, he's wrong. Which means you believe fascism, absolutiist ideology, and totalitarianism are good.

I'm guessing you have dreadlocks and wear "Free Leonard Peltier" T-shirts. Do you just like being different?

DVaut1 · #5 12-01-2005, 09:43 PM

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On the one hand, DVault1, he may be right. Fascism, absolutist ideology, and totalitarianism are evil. According you to, however, he's wrong. Which means you believe fascism, absolutiist ideology, and totalitarianism are good.

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No, no - this is important. I think he's wrong. I'm pretty damn certain he's wrong. But I'm totally willing to admit he might be right -- so much so that I don't attribute his not agreeing with me to an inability or an unwillingness to listen.

Huge difference. It's like the difference, in tournament poker, between raising all-in and calling an all-in. And there's a reason why the distinction is important.

And for the record, I don't disagree that totalitarianism and fascism are evil (I have some reservations calling all absolutists ideologies evil; I'm absolutely sure murder is wrong, for instance).

What I do disagree with, and what I'm fairly certain M is wrong about, is that Islamic states have a natural or inherent tendency to be evil, totalitarian, or fascistic.

And I'm even more certain that even if they are, that it's not due to anything regarding the nature of Islam.

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I'm guessing you have dreadlocks and wear "Free Leonard Peltier" T-shirts. Do you just like being different?

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lol

No, I don't have dredlocks, nor do I wear 'Free Leonard Peltier' t-shirt.

I don't necessarily think there's any inherent value in 'being different'. Certainly, such things are dependent on the circumstances.

MMMMMM · #6 12-01-2005, 10:44 PM

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What I do disagree with, and what I'm fairly certain M is wrong about, is that Islamic states have a natural or inherent tendency to be evil, totalitarian, or fascistic.

And I'm even more certain that even if they are, that it's not due to anything regarding the nature of Islam.

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Sure, but your opinion flies in the face of theose who have lived, breathed and studied Islam all of their lives--the Muslim imams, the mullahs, and the madrassas teachers: THEY believe man's only rightful freedom is to worship Allah and to behave as prescribed in the Koran. What's more, they say so. Of course they don't see that as evil but as good: but regardless of the question of evil or good, it is clearly totalitarian--and you and I (I should think), consider thatto be a bad rather than good thing.

nicky g · #7 12-02-2005, 05:01 AM

"THEY believe man's only rightful freedom is to worship Allah and to behave as prescribed in the Koran."

There's a bit of a contradiction there because the Qur'an gives people the freedom to worship other Gods, as has nearly ever Muslim-ruled state.

#8 12-02-2005, 05:24 PM

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What I do disagree with, and what I'm fairly certain M is wrong about, is that Islamic states have a natural or inherent tendency to be evil, totalitarian, or fascistic.

And I'm even more certain that even if they are, that it's not due to anything regarding the nature of Islam.

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Sure, but your opinion flies in the face of theose who have lived, breathed and studied Islam all of their lives--the Muslim imams, the mullahs, and the madrassas teachers: THEY believe man's only rightful freedom is to worship Allah and to behave as prescribed in the Koran. What's more, they say so. Of course they don't see that as evil but as good: but regardless of the question of evil or good, it is clearly totalitarian--and you and I (I should think), consider thatto be a bad rather than good thing.

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Well I've spoken with Pat Robertson and Jerry Fallwell about the nature of Christianity, and they've got a few fascistic things to say about the place of women in the house and the rights of gays. Listen, people that have lived, breathed and shitted Christianity have called for theocracies. I used to read the bible extensively and the harsh, murderous tone of it is one reason (although a minor one [long story]) why I gave it up.

BluffTHIS! · #9 12-01-2005, 11:49 PM

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and what I'm fairly certain M is wrong about, is that Islamic states have a natural or inherent tendency to be evil, totalitarian, or fascistic.

And I'm even more certain that even if they are, that it's not due to anything regarding the nature of Islam.

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I'd be interested in the reasons for your certainty here DVaut. That is, why there would be no causal relation between Islam and Islamic states tending to be totalitarian (if they do have that tendency). Thus, what other reasons would there be? And obviously if there are other such reasons, then many other non-Islamic totalitarian states should be the result of the same causes.

DVaut1 · #10 12-02-2005, 12:10 AM

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and what I'm fairly certain M is wrong about, is that Islamic states have a natural or inherent tendency to be evil, totalitarian, or fascistic.

And I'm even more certain that even if they are, that it's not due to anything regarding the nature of Islam.

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I'd be interested in the reasons for your certainty here DVaut. That is, why there would be no causal relation between Islam and Islamic states tending to be totalitarian (if they do have that tendency). Thus, what other reasons would there be? And obviously if there are other such reasons, then many other non-Islamic totalitarian states should be the result of the same causes.

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Here's one that immediately popped into my head, and one that I suspect might have some normativity (although I certainly haven't done a vigorous study, if a vigorous study were even possible):

Rejection of modernity (or more broadly, fear of change); Peter Gay's book The Outsider as Insider is a fantastic book that chronicles the culture of the Weimar Republic, and how the rapid modernization of German society led to an immense backlash that spurred the rise of the Third Reich. Little Man, What Now? is closely related and equally important in the study of what led to the rise of the Third Reich...included in Fallada's work (Little Man...)is a rather vivid picture of how fascists rely on using overtly masculine rhetoric (and enacting policies meant to appeal to rectify 'male anxiety') can lead a state to fall prey to leaders who advocate totalitarianism.

Speaking of male anxiety, adherence to an overly-masculine ethic is another theory as to why states that have a foundation of religious fundamentalism (be they Islamic, Christian, or otherwise) will frequently turn to totalitarian or oppressive means of governance. Ducat details in the recently released The Wimp Factor how Holy Wars of all kind are frequently waged to placate mass male hysteria.

So there's two (although I'm sure I could speculate as I have here, and come up with many more) reasons as to why I'm fairly certain that there's not a particularly causal relationship between Islam and totalitarianism, even if there's a correlation between Islam and totalitarianism (and I don't think has ever been successfully demonstrated, either).