2/5 NL hand from the Taj

[doubleas]

UTG raises to $15. It is called in 2 places and hero calls in the SB. Maniac/wierdo BB reraises to $40. Folded to hero who calls with [Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]].

Flop is J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Hero checks, BB bets $25. Hero calls.

Turn is 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Hero checks. BB bets $100. Hero calls.

Flop is 8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Hero bets $300 (flush). BB reraises all-in for $300 more. Hero calls.

How do you play this differently if at all against a proven maniac/wierdo.

[Cornell Fiji]

Please post stack sizes for beter responses.

To be honest, I think that the best way to play this is to fold your small blind for $2. Once you make that call I think that the second best play is to fold for the additional $25.

QJs is simply not a hand that I want to play 4 handed out of position. I can gaurantee that at least one of your outs is crushed as any of the following hands puts you in a lot of trouble AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AQ, AJ, KQ, KJ, A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and if you hit on the flop you have no idea if you are a big dog.

Most maniacs that I have experience with will limp with a lot of hands and will also raise a lot of hands but I think that it is a big mistake to give so little respect to the reraise when out of position, he very well might be reraising with A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], AA, KK, QQ, AQ, JJ in which case you are drawing slim.

The worst part about this hand when out of position against a reraiser is that you have no idea where you stand when you hit (as I am sure you saw)

My guess with the river action is that you were against either A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] or JJ and learned a valuble lesson about playing weak hands out of a position to two raises.

-Steve

[lapoker17]

This hand is retarded. I've tightened up my PF standards a lot lately, but I generally don't judge others PF decisions. So, I'll let you slide with your PF call. The thing you need to understand is this: With a hand like QJ, if you don't hit the flop hard (2 pair or better), then your hand is dead unless you're drawing to the nuts (only a straight here, not the flush) and are getting the right price.

The thing that I can't figure out is how UTG can raise PF, then fold to a nominal reraise from the BB who is wild.

Can't figure that one out...

[DrPublo]

[ QUOTE ]
learned a valuble lesson about playing weak hands out of a position to two raises.

[/ QUOTE ]

Another valuable lesson: If you're going to draw to a flush on a paired board, you better be DAMN sure no one is full.

The Doc

[tpir90036]

hearing that he is a maniac/weirdo is only partially helpful. is he just a maniac pre-flop but slows down afterwards? a total maniac on all streets?

i am also curious as to how everyone else folded for just $25 more.... especailly the UTG raiser who will have position on mr. maniac. as it stands you are getting 4:1 to call pre-flop so even though you are out of position i think you have to call and see what happens on the flop.

the problem with this hand is that you have no idea where you are at on any street.... and against a maniac you might get blown off of the best hand if you throw in a raise somewhere. against a reasonable opponent i think you could lead out with a bet on the turn and fold to a huge re-raise.... but in this hand... i really have no idea what line is best.

it sure looks like you are beat.... but depending on what level of maniac you are up against i think you have to call the river getting almost 3.5:1.

hope it worked out,
-tpir

[laserboy]

As others have mentioned, if you are playing Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] out of position to big preflop raises, you better get ready to outplay your opporent after the flop. You claim that the guy is a maniac, but do you really believe that he is reraising a multiway pot without a hand? Did you at least try to put him on a hand?

That being said, I would have bet or checkraised on the flop and then went from there. If he calls or reraises, you know you are probably beat.

[cero_z]

Hi doubleas,

I think you played it fine, assuming by "maniac/weirdo," you mean very loose, very aggressive, unpredictable, and not very good (this last part is fairly important). I think the advice you've gotten so far is pretty bad. I get the feeling from your post that you lost this hand to a flopped boat, and you're wondering if your perception of his style made you play too loose. If he's maniacal/weird, then no, you might look at a boat, or pocket nines or J8 here, just to mention a few ridiculous hands he could show you. Your line on all streets was fine (though I'd be comfortable getting more money in on the flop and/or the turn), and the pre-flop calls were mandatory, assuming most stacks were 100 X BB or more. I like your lead bet of 300 on the river.

tpir wrote,

[ QUOTE ]
against a reasonable opponent i think you could lead out with a bet on the turn and fold to a huge re-raise

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't agree with this at all. I mean, you could do this, but I wouldn't recommend it against any but the most utterly predictable of opponents. You don't want to have to fold your very good draw (2 outs to J's full and 9 to a flush) without being positive you're drawing dead, which you can't be against a maniac.

[Post-Oak]

From the action, we can see that Maniac had $765 and Hero had him covered. The stacks are 150+ X the BB.

My first reaction was the same as the initial posters who considered the whole hand ridiculous. I was shocked to see cero_z's post.

I think the problem here is that you are supposed to be dealing with a proven maniac. If we look at this hand in a vaacuum, you misplayed it on every street. But if we consider you are up against a maniac, the hand becomes understandable.

A maniac is not just a typical loose, aggressive player. They take it to another level. They are all complete and total fish. They can run up big wins over the short term, but they get killed by the patient, reasonable players over the long term. And short term is REALLY short term with them, because even when they build big stacks, they usually give it all away in the same session.

Was this guy a true maniac? Would he call off large portions of his stack with gargbage hands because he wants to see the flop? Would he reraise a turn raise with nothing? Is it impossible to tell what 2 cards he has?

Personally, I like to take the low variance route and not mix it up with maniacs unless I have a relatively big hand. For example, playing a low pair for set value is a great strategy against a maniac. The key is that you don't have to be up against AA or KK to get his whole stack. He will bet and raise with 8J as if he had AA.

I realize that employing this strategy means that most of the time you will watch other players take all of the maniac's money. I guess it is an issue of how much variance you want to accept. It is possible to call a maniac down with a single pair on a scary board and still win. I see it done online all the time against true maniacs. Your bet on the river and his subsequent all-in is another thing. I don't think he has nothing here. He should have something. But at this point it is too late to fold here (against a maniac).

My advice:

Fold to the initial preflop raise to $15.

Call the raise to $40 because all of the nits who folded after paying 15 have built the pot and it is only 25 to you.

Call the flop bet (it is only 25, and the pot is already 150). I don't raise to see where I'm at, because a maniac will reraise with nothing. You can not see where you are at, which is why I try to avoid these types of hands against maniacs in the first place.

I would call the turn too. You still have a pair of J and now you have a flush draw. Of course, this would be a big "so what" against a reasonable opponent. Against a maniac, there is a good chance you are ahead. It is impossible to know. Basically, you have been sucked in by several factors. Your opponent is wildly unpredictable. The pot has been large compared to his bets on every street.

River I bet and call his all-in.

Looks like a very uncomfortable confrontation with a maniac. I try to avoid these kind of extremely high variance face offs in favor of just nut peddling against them (and two pair can practically be considered the nuts considering what they show down). In this instance you have just played a very big pot with a hand that would not warrant any of these calls against a reasonable opponent.

One thing I want to note is that some maniacs sometimes can give a hint to the size of their hand by how much they bet. Was his bet of 25 on the flop (100 already in the pot) typical of his "here let me bet with nothing and watch you fold" or was this a small bet for him? I find that many maniacs actually slow down a little with big hands. This is insanely stupid, since the one benefit of being this kind of fish is that people just have to pay your big hands off. But these are terrible poker players, so it should be no surprise that many maniacs suddenly slow down when they have a monster.

My recomendation is that you fold preflop for the first 13 to call. The rest is highly dependent, because it is so hard to tell with a maniac. Again, all of this analysis only make sense if player is a TRUE maniac.

Maybe you should describe him to us more.

[creedofhubris]

Sit to the maniac's left and so fold preflop?

Once you're in the hand, the calls and bets make sense against a crazy person.

[random]

[ QUOTE ]
I think that the best way to play this is to fold your small blind for $2

[/ QUOTE ] There was a raise to 15. But say there wasn't... and two people limped... you're seriously going to fold for two bucks? QJs can make a lot of hands and it's not hard to fold if the flop doesn't hit you hard. 8.5-1