Bad Raise with QQ?

Absolute 6-max, 1/2, I'm on the button with the usual collection of LPs with a few LAGs. It's six-handed, everyone calls to me, and I've got QQ. I raise, everyone calls; six to the flop for 12SB. The flop is ragged, which is great, but to make a long story short, the pot is pretty bloated, and I have difficulty protetecting my hand. I lead the betting all the way, and the villains never find themselves having to make a call with worse than 10-1 pot odds. Not ideal.

Hold off on raising, so as not to allow my opponents to make correct calls, and have a better shot at protecting with a raise? Or is my equity too strong not to raise it up with everyone trapped? I was reading Wookie's article in the magazine earlier today, and this reminded me a little of his situation, albeit with the whole table coming along, not just the blinds.

Sorry for the essay-like post, but this made more sense to me than the usual format.

[tyler_cracker]

If you're on the button and leading the betting the whole way, it doesn't sound like you have any choices. You either check behind and let everyone draw for free, or you bet and charge them what you can.

If someone else bets, then you have some choices, but your decision is going to be aided by who bet, how many other donkeys called along, etc.

Also, re-re-re-read the "Two Overpairs" chapter of SSH.

HTH.

So the reference to "Two Overpair Hands"; are you suggesting that this is one of those situations in which waiting to a later street will allow me to exploit a bigger edge rather than a smaller edge now? Because that's what I'm driving at. I know I have no choice but to bet, but I feel like I created the odds to draw, and shouldn't have.

[crownjules]

Your raising/betting for value. QQ is a monster hand that will win a lot of the time. It's tougher in a multi-way hand, but it will still take down it's fair share. If all those other players want to call along with their gutshots, backdoor draws, outside chances of hitting two-pair/trips, or drawing to an A/K, then that's money in your pocket.

You may not win every time, but the times you do will more than make up for those times you don't.

[tyler_cracker]

[ QUOTE ]
So the reference to "Two Overpair Hands"; are you suggesting that this is one of those situations in which waiting to a later street will allow me to exploit a bigger edge rather than a smaller edge now? Because that's what I'm driving at. I know I have no choice but to bet, but I feel like I created the odds to draw, and shouldn't have.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, this is *not* a case where you should wait to push your edge, because laying everyone 10:1 is better than laying infinity:1 (which you already know). If no one else bets, and you are last to act, you simply must bet.

But, as i said before, if someone else had bet, you might have a decision to make, and if so, "Two Overpairs" will help you. Sometimes you should forgo your small edge on the flop to exploit a larger edge on the turn.

I feel like there's something else you want advice on, but i can't figure out what it is. Help me help you.

[ QUOTE ]
It's tougher in a multi-way hand, but it will still take down it's fair share. If all those other players want to call along with their gutshots, backdoor draws, outside chances of hitting two-pair/trips, or drawing to an A/K, then that's money in your pocket.


[/ QUOTE ]

But they've got odds to call, and call profitably. Overcards, gutshots, pretty much everybody. How is that money in my pocket?

Perhaps I should clarify: I'm fully aware that betting on the flop and turn is correct, as good odds are way better than infinite odds. It's the PF decision that I'm concerned about. I fear that I bloated the pot with the PF raise, and allowed my opponents to make profitable draws. If I hadn't raised, I maybe could have protected on the flop.

And by "later street", I meant the flop, the flop being later than PF. Not clear.

[tyler_cracker]

[ QUOTE ]
But they've got odds to call, and call profitably. Overcards, gutshots, pretty much everybody. How is that money in my pocket?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because you are betting with the best hand. This is the classic definition of a value bet. If no one hits their hand, you will win, and you will win a lot more often than 1/N times, where N is the number of players in the hand.

You might want to review the SSH section on "where the money comes from", at the beginning.

[tyler_cracker]

[ QUOTE ]
Perhaps I should clarify: I'm fully aware that betting on the flop and turn is correct, as good odds are way better than infinite odds. It's the PF decision that I'm concerned about. I fear that I bloated the pot with the PF raise, and allowed my opponents to make profitable draws. If I hadn't raised, I maybe could have protected on the flop.

And by "later street", I meant the flop, the flop being later than PF. Not clear.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, ok. You must raise preflop because you're giving up *too much* by not raising. QQ will win way, way, way more than its fair share, so you exploit that power by raising preflop, forcing everyone to put more money in the pot when they are longshots to win.

Again, review that very first section of SSH. It's easy to take this stuff for granted, but at some level you have to understand all of it. Thus, this is a good thread to have started. Keep asking questions if i'm not telling you what you want to know; this is a great exercise for me (and other people).

[ QUOTE ]
Perhaps I should clarify: I'm fully aware that betting on the flop and turn is correct, as good odds are way better than infinite odds. It's the PF decision that I'm concerned about. I fear that I bloated the pot with the PF raise, and allowed my opponents to make profitable draws. If I hadn't raised, I maybe could have protected on the flop.

And by "later street", I meant the flop, the flop being later than PF. Not clear.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're raising because you have a hugely profitable equity edge PF. Against three players limping top 30% of hands and two random hands in the blinds, you have 33% PF equity.