Any NYC Poker Lawyers out there?

[Luv2DriveTT]

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Am I barking up the wrong tree, possibly. Then again, if I'm not, it might be worthwhile.

How many posts I have under my belt is not particularly relevent. If you're a lawyer and can say with some degree of expertise whether or not what I'm suggesting makes any legal sense, than do so. If not, leave it to someone who is. I'm sure there are at least a few lawyers on this board.

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I just got a call from a lawyer whom every room owner knows. He laughed when I told him what you were asking. Trust us, your barking up the wrong tree.

TT

[StevieG]

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How many posts I have under my belt is not particularly relevent. If you're a lawyer and can say with some degree of expertise whether or not what I'm suggesting makes any legal sense, than do so. If not, leave it to someone who is. I'm sure there are at least a few lawyers on this board.


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There are definitely practicing NY attorneys posting here, and some of them may wish to comment on the chances of winning the argument you suggest.

But none of them are likely to be "willing to do this," and certainly not because you suggested the idea here. That's what TT pointed out in his response.

Like it or not, that is partly because you just registered here today and started posting. You are asking a favor, and for that people would at least want to know you have contributed here in the past (and legal work is a huge favor, so the contribution had better be huge).

Mason Malmuth can post here and ask for free consulting work in any number of fields and he would likely get it. That's because people are grateful for 2+2 sponsoring the forums (and publishing great books, etc.). But as it happens, Mason offers to compensate people. Which is what TT suggested you do.

[mikech]

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You are soliciting a lawyer on this board to do pro bono work for you?

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I just got a call from a lawyer whom every room owner knows. He laughed when I told him what you were asking. Trust us, your barking up the wrong tree.

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Mason Malmuth can post here and ask for free consulting work in any number of fields and he would likely get it. That's because people are grateful for 2+2 sponsoring the forums (and publishing great books, etc.). But as it happens, Mason offers to compensate people. Which is what TT suggested you do.

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please point out to me where in his posts he asked for pro bono work to be done on his behalf.



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Would it be possible to sue the city to force them to do this? Is there some pissed off poker playing lawyer out there who'd be willing to do this (especially considering that every third guy in these clubs is a lawyer)?

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To be honest, no. If I was, I'd just call my lawyer. But I bet alot of lawyers have lost money in these busts, and maybe there's one out there just pissed off enough to do something about it.

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sure sounds to me like he's simply suggesting poker players who are also lawyers who might've been caught up in these busts take up this issue for themselves (and as a result it would benefit him, of course, as well as other players who had monies seized).

I think one of the problems with this whole situation is your argument that while it's illegal to run the club, it's legal to play in them. I am not sure where you are getting this from, but I am assuming you saw the same statement from the office of the Manhattan DA, Morgenthau, where they basically said such.

The problem is, I think this may be more of a practical determination than anything else. I highly doubt you could get a court to say that you have a legal right to play poker in an illegal club. The fact is the games themselves are not legal because somebody is profiting illegally from them.

This is almost like the argument that if you buy drugs from drug dealer, and he doesn't give them to you, that you should be able to recover the money from him. While I know this is different, because purchasing drugs is illegal, whereas playing poker in an illegal club is more dubious, it seems like similar principles would apply.

[chicane]

Last July, The NY Libertaian Party held a protest rally about this whole confiscation issue. It got some publicity, but nothing more came of it. No mainstream politician took up the cause.

http://www.pokergazette.com/simpnews...mp;newsnr=1133

I think it's been made pretty clear by the NYS penal code, the DA, the vice squad, and others that playing poker in NYC is not illegal:

[i]
As directed, the State legislature “has legislated in the field of
gambling and by the Penal Law, delineated the conduct to be prohibited
throughout the state.” Wilkerson, 342 N.Y.S.2d at 942.
Significantly, “[t]he only gambling activities which are prohibited
are promoting gambling (PL §§ 225.05 and 225.10), possession of
gambling records (PL §§ 225.15 and 225.20) and possession of a
gambling device (PL § 225.30).” People v. Melton, 578 N.Y.S.2d 377,
378 (N.Y. Sup. 1991). Therefore, playing or engaging in its play are
not explicitly prohibited by New York penal laws.

New York sate penal law follows the policy of penalizing only the
promoter and not the player. See Watts v. Malatesta, 262 N.Y. 80, 82
(N.Y. 1933) (casual betting or gaming by individuals as distinguished
from betting or gambling as a business or profession, is not a crime).
New York has not treated individuals participants in gambling games
as criminals. Melton, 578 N.Y.S.2d at 378. Participating in gambling
games on the same terms as other players for amusement or recreation
is lawful. See Wilkerson, 342 N.Y.S.2d at 940. More specifically,
the “Legislature . . . has excluded the ‘player’ from the reach of the
Penal Law.” Id.

New York gambling laws are “intended and designed to sanction and
facilitate the prosecution of the professional book-maker and other
professional operators and promoters of unlawful gambling activity.
The individual player or bettor is excluded from its prohibitions.
People v. DiCarlo, 309 N.Y.S.2d 791, 792 (N.Y.Co.Ct. 1970). Although
“promoting” the play of poker may be unlawful, participating in
gambling games on the same terms as other players for amusement or
recreation is lawful. See Wilkerson, 342 N.Y.S.2d at 940.
The fact that New York’s penal code prohibits the promotion of
gambling is not the significant factor. The determining question is
whether the state criminal laws prohibit the play of the game, in this
case poker. As we have seen, the penal code does not make the play of
poker a criminal violation.

Okay everyone, let me clear a few things up.

I am not asking for pro bono legal work on my behalf. I realized once I saw the cops in the room that the money was gone. I have no illusions about being able to recover any of the money from that night. But I also had some time to think about the situation.

What I came up with is that if the cops were forced to document the evidence in a certain way, that would preserve the amount that the players were owed by the house, THE NEXT TIME THAT THE COPS RAID A CLUB, the players might have some recourse to recover their money.

However, the cops aren't going to do this out of the goodness of their hearts. Neither is the DA. If we as a group want to collectively attenpt to enforce what might be our rights in this situation, someone who knows what they're doing is going to need to go to court, fight with the DA, and try and get a court order to impose the necessary evidence collection rules on the cops. There is going to be no money in it for the lawyer who does this, so yes it would be pro bono for the benefit of the poker playing community in NYC (it might be worth some publicity, for a lawyer who seeks such). However, there seem to be alot of lawyers playing poker here. As I said before maybe one of them is pissed off enough about the situation to do something about it.

Now some people on this thread have said there is no chance for this to work. This is quite possible, maybe even likely. Then again, we've all played hands that were longshots to make. Maybe someone could get lucky.

[Luv2DriveTT]

Don't you think these lawyers have already considered your idea and rejected it as a viable option? One of the people recently arrested was a lawyer, and he opted not to take action. Why do you think that is? It seems logical to me.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

That's very possible, but I've been playing a fair amount (mainly in the room that just got busted), and no one talked about it (and I've heard a few cockamamie ideas floated on how to legally deal with the current situation.) Therefore I don't that know it's been discussed and rejected. So I thought it might be worth bringing up. It certainly can't hurt given the circumstances.

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Don't you think these lawyers have already considered your idea and rejected it as a viable option? One of the people recently arrested was a lawyer, and he opted not to take action. Why do you think that is? It seems logical to me.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

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[JPinAZ]

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Last July, The NY Libertaian Party held a protest rally about this whole confiscation issue. It got some publicity, but nothing more came of it. No mainstream politician took up the cause.

http://www.pokergazette.com/simpnews...mp;newsnr=1133

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Here's the thread:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...Number=2848472