Getting Back into Limit, Some Advice Needed Please!

[adam61]

I'm getting back into limit (been playing now for about 2 weeks) Started off with a +600 at 2/4 and lost about $250 since then. I'm up and down and taking a ton of beats. Basically I started 2 days ago using PokerTracker again so when I hit 5,000 or so hands hopefully someone could point out some of my major leaks.

I'm playing better than the average player but have several decent sized leaks I'm having trouble plugging. Mainly I'm playing bad against bad players I think and that's costing me a lot. Aces is one of my biggest losing hands for example which is probably a short-term thing but it's definitely part of my doing.

So just on a more general level here's some mistakes I think I'm making and I wanted just some general directional advice on where I may be going wrong.

Preflop: I tend to raise AK AQs AA KK QQ KQs and sometimes jacks.

I play: AQ AJ ATs KTs KQo KJs QJs JTs and all Pocket Pairs below Jacks. As well as suited connectors down to 54s with a couple limpers.

I play sometimes and in late position: QTs JTo KTo ATo KJo QJo

Any major holes there? It isn't hard and fast, I'll limp occasionally from the button and SB with worse hands, and sometimes just play a hand here or there, but that's very uncommon.

Post-Flop is where I'm losing a lot of money. I STILL can't tell if I'm being too weak or too aggressive since I get burned both ways. For example when you have KK or QQ and an A or K falls against a 60% and 80% preflop player who calls all your bets and checkraises you on the river do you call?
How hard do you bet AK, I generally play it similar to Aces but usually don't bet the river, but I sometimes do.

I think one of my main problem is how strong does my holding have to be to play to the river with an 80% preflop person, 60%, 40%, etc. This has been giving me some trouble. Everytime I find myself trying to think logically about what a 60% or 80% preflop player has I end up getting burned. They also tend to overvalue their Hands so with AJ in a JT7 rainbow board I never know if a raise means a straight, JT, or J7, J2, QT, etc. So I generally just check/call the rest of the hand down. The illogical play of my opponents tends to weaken my play because they could be playing anything so without a monster I rarely cap, cause everytime I have I've gotten burned.

I know you can't give a whole lot of advice, I've read the books and I'm eagerly awaiting the new 2+2 book to arrive here which I think will help a lot, but any general tips would be great to send me in the right direction before I have more hands for PokerTracker.

Thanks!

[adam61]

Couple little additions, I also play Axs with a couple limpers, and for table selection on 2/4 I generally choose tables with 0-4 people on the list and avg pot of $35+

[HajiShirazu]

All those hands in the second group, not the "I raise" group but the "I play" group should probably be raised preflop if no one else has raised, except for maybe JTs. You should also be raising a few other hands like tens and nines.
But preflop is crap anyway. Everybody knows the real money is made with good postflop play. Unfortunately postflop play is hard. So as general advice, read the hands posted on the board, play aggressively when the pot is big, and don't miss value bets on the river even if you might not have the best hand, and don't play scared because you're losing.
Obviously if aces are a loser for you you might be running bad. Once again, don't start fearing monsters just because a few people have shown you big hands. Aggressive play gets the money.

[Cosimo]

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when I hit 5,000 or so

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I played 2000 hands yesterday, and this is just a hobby for me. If AA isn't winning for you, then you definitely haven't yet hit the long run. It will take 100,000 hands before your win rate starts to settle down. My win rate still fluctuates by almost 1BB/100h at the end of a month. (Note: I keep records for every table at which I play, including hands, flops, wins, time, and results.)

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I play: AQ AJ ATs KTs KQo KJs QJs JTs and all Pocket Pairs below Jacks. As well as suited connectors down to 54s with a couple limpers.

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Avoid KJo, KTo, and QTo until you get better at beating these players. Add Axs (even in EP if there aren't a lot of preflop raises), and a few Kxs late behind a lot of limpers. Note that in loose, passive games, drawing hands gain a lot of strength and high pocket pairs lose a bit. Keep in mind what type of flop you are hoping to hit with each hand you play. If A3s hits an A on the flop, you still have top pair; don't fold it.

[ QUOTE ]
you have KK or QQ and an A or K falls against a 60% and 80% preflop player who calls all your bets and checkraises you on the river do you call?

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Call huge pots if you're still alive at the river. Be aggressive in huge pots. Don't be afraid of monsters, and be wary of playing scared.

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So I generally just check/call the rest of the hand down.

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Taking down a raised pot on the flop is great; don't succumb to TPS and give your opponents a chance to outdraw you. Wait until someone tells you that you are beaten; a raise on the flop often means middle pocket pair or a bad draw. Keep playing aggressively. Raise your strong draws from late position. Play weak hands (and weak draws) cautiously when out of position. Play overcards slowly postflop, because your PFR and flop bet usually tells them what you have (and they won't fear it if they can beat it). Check-fold overcards and bad draws in small pots and out of position. Stick around in big pots vs passive players; you usually have implied odds to hit 2p or trips.

Finally, don't listen to everything I say. There's lots of better players here, and a few of them have written books, too. I'm hoping some of them will correct my errors. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[Bob T.]

: AQ AJ ATs KTs KQo KJs QJs JTs and all Pocket Pairs below Jacks. As well as suited connectors down to 54s with a couple limpers.

I play sometimes and in late position: QTs JTo KTo ATo KJo QJo


Depending on what has happened so far in the hand, you might consider raising all of these hands situationally. Especially when you would be the second player in against a weak predictable player. I assume you are raising all of these hands when you are first in in MP or later, right?

It sounds like your postflop woes might be because you are adjusting your play after every hand. If you were too aggressive based on your last hands results, you play more passively on the next hand and vice versa. I think you need to find a level of aggression that you are confident with, and stay with it. As you get used to the limit game again, you might be too aggressive, because you are used to being able to take down pots with proper aggression at NL. But the pots that you can win with aggression are fewer when you are playing limit, and the inferences that you can draw from their actions are weaker, so you need to play more of a statistical value betting game, instead of a tactical one.

Beyond that, I would say post hands that you had trouble with, and post hands that you think you played well, and we'll see if we can help.

Good luck,
play well,

Bob T.

[Jdanz]

i just wanted to say that those were three absolutely great responses. All i have to add is to reiterate raising with many of the hands they suggested to raise with, not only because of what you gain vs loose limpers pre-flop (which is significant, but not nearly as significant as post-flop play) but because it makes it much easier to be aggressive for the rest of the hand. Win more when you're best, win pots that no one hits, and the overlooked scare people out of raising you (i.e. if they hit two week pair on the river after you've bet top pair hard the whole way.)

-JDanz

[Tigerscott]

Looks to me like your playing way to many hands.. I'd like to know what your VP$IP is in the 5000 hands you've played so far. A good %VP$IP is prolly 20% or less. Any higher and your playing to many hands. (Guessing your vp$ip is around 25-30% if not higher).
As a limit player who's worked my way up to 2/4 full time I've learned the hard way about playing tight aggressive..

Look through the hands you've been playing in PT and throw out the biggest loosers. Learn to play stronger positional poker.

One tip I heard was look for a reason to get out of hands.. Don't try to find reasons to play them...

[Jdanz]

you look for reasons to fold preflop, and reasons to call towards the turn and river, if you're always looking to fold, or you're not willing to play a weak draw when the odds are there you're leaving a lot of money on the table.

-JDanz

[adam61]

Yea that's definitely good advice all around thanks guys. I used the throwing away big losers thing in NL but I had 50,000+ hands there. With only a couple thousand hands Aces is one of my biggest losers so I really can't be drawing conclusions til I've had each hand 50+ times. VP$IP is 21.18% is that too high? That's still not a great indicator since I've only played 1500 hands. Raised Preflop is only 5.5% so I guess that's something I need to work on.