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#1
09-22-2005, 09:21 PM
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Two monotone flops -- different lines
Same table. No solid reads on any opponents, but Poker Ace HUD has the table VPIP at 14.8 and the PFR at 6.05. Sounds bad, but I've been doing well at the table because the opponents have been playing predictably/poorly postflop.
Hand 1: Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx Preflop: Hero is SB with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, BB calls. Flop: (10 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font> Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, UTG calls, MP2 folds, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, Hero folds Who 3-bets PF instead of waiting for a safe flop to get aggressive? Who likes JJ OOP with this many opponents? Who likes my flush outs, and would continue to the turn? Hand 2: Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP3 calls, <font color="#CC3333">CO 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB caps</font>, BB calls, Hero calls, MP3 calls, CO calls. Flop: (20 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font> SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP3 calls, CO calls, SB calls, BB folds. Turn: (12 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font> SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP3 calls, CO calls, SB calls. River: (16 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font> SB checks, Hero... Who bets this river, who check-raises all sexy-like? What hands are you putting the others on that cause you to take that line? 
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#2
09-22-2005, 09:30 PM
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Re: Two monotone flops -- different lines
Hand 1: I think your flush outs are good here a decent percentage of the time, but the pot isn't really big enough to justify calling 2 bets to chase. And yes, I like a 3-bet preflop; JJ is too strong not to 3-bet unless you had a read on UTG (and/or some of the coldcallers) as the tightest, rockiest mofo ever.
I think you have to bet the river in Hand 2. While it's likely that at least one of your opponents is calling down with a worse flush draw, the paired board + all the strength you've shown thus far makes it less likely that anyone will bet a non-nut flush behind you. And I would really hate to check/raise my way into being 3-bet by a slowplayed KK or a QQ that just hit his river 2-outer.
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#3
09-22-2005, 09:35 PM
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Re: Two monotone flops -- different lines
Hand 1: Threebet preflop. The way you play it, I like the flop fold. Your flush outs may or may not be clean, your pair most likely is no good... personally I don't even think it's close.
Hand 2: This seems like a standard bet/call on the river. I don't see a worse flush raising you here. If you c/r you don't wnat to see a threebet.
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#4
09-22-2005, 09:35 PM
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Re: Two monotone flops -- different lines
1. 3bet preflop. I think the flop fold is fine when two back to you and only the third nut flush with this many people.
2. Bet. no one has shown any agression thus far and it could easily get checked through. you could get sexy but there is also a chance that someone else c/r and you can get some extra bets from them and their worse flush.
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#5
09-22-2005, 09:42 PM
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Re: Two monotone flops -- different lines
[ QUOTE ]
I think you have to bet the river in Hand 2. While it's likely that at least one of your opponents is calling down with a worse flush draw, the paired board + all the strength you've shown thus far makes it less likely that anyone will bet a non-nut flush behind you. And I would really hate to check/raise my way into being 3-bet by a slowplayed KK or a QQ that just hit his river 2-outer. [/ QUOTE ] So you're not 3-betting if you bet and get raised? I see the opportunity to 3-bet being a benefit of betting the river. Then again, check-raising and calling a 3-bet might be better since if it gets capped we're dead. Could this be one of those times that 3-betting and folding to a cap is correct? [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]
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#6
09-22-2005, 09:45 PM
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Re: Two monotone flops -- different lines
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] I think you have to bet the river in Hand 2. While it's likely that at least one of your opponents is calling down with a worse flush draw, the paired board + all the strength you've shown thus far makes it less likely that anyone will bet a non-nut flush behind you. And I would really hate to check/raise my way into being 3-bet by a slowplayed KK or a QQ that just hit his river 2-outer. [/ QUOTE ] So you're not 3-betting if you bet and get raised? I see the opportunity to 3-bet being a benefit of betting the river. Then again, check-raising and calling a 3-bet might be better since if it gets capped we're dead. Could this be one of those times that 3-betting and folding to a cap is correct? [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] I don't think i'm folding this to a cap. I've seen idiots cap this with a J. They figure only one club is beating them.
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#7
09-22-2005, 10:09 PM
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Re: Two monotone flops -- different lines
[ QUOTE ]
So you're not 3-betting if you bet and get raised? I see the opportunity to 3-bet being a benefit of betting the river. Then again, check-raising and calling a 3-bet might be better since if it gets capped we're dead. [/ QUOTE ] Consider that, after you raised preflop, it was 3-bet & capped behind you. KK or QQ both beat you now; another AK is probably not putting in more than 1 bet on the river (if 1) no matter how you play it. TxTc & AA are also probably not going to call a raise, no matter where it comes from. So in order to get value out of your raise (or 3-bet, if you take that route), you are likely banking on someone else having precisely the J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. You can argue that bad players will put in an extra bet on the river with less, but do they do that often enough to make up for the times you're check/raising or bet/3-betting with a losing hand? After all the action preflop, a very scary board, and you leading the flop and turn, it's going to look very suspicious if you just check, and I don't think you can be sure that anyone will bet a worse hand behind you. However, given the size of the pot, quite a few hands will call for 1 more bet on the river--certainly more than will make the bet themselves. Given that, plus the number of times I've had a flopped set use a call/call/raise line on me in precisely these circumstances on 5/10, I vastly prefer bet/call to any other river line.
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#8
09-22-2005, 10:42 PM
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Re: Two monotone flops -- different lines
I really don't think you need to be afraid that QQ just outdrew you. What would compell him to call both the flop and turn with red queens on a monotone K-high flop?
If he saw the preflop action someone obviously has a K or a club so QQ can be discounted completely imo. I would bet 3-bet the river as i think KK would have gone ballistic on the turn when the board paired instead. There's no guarantee that the Jc is out there and he might be to afraid of the Ac to even bet this river. Considering that it's probably better to just bet-call the river in case someones been slow playing a boat.
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