looking for a bigger edge

[Entity]

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Though you're probably right because many cards on turn even if they decrease a value - decrease it a little and maybe it worth to call here and raise turn just because you can collect a bit more chips from guys when you're ahead. Though im still prefer them to fold ther low pocket pairs, inside straights draw and trashy flopped pairs as fast as possible.

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The biggest problem with that, though, is that you can't make them fold. You don't have the position for it. Raising the flop gives them slightly better odds than they were accepting when they called/bet on the flop, so unless the SB 3-bets, there is little, if any, ability to cause them to fold a gutshot or any hands you should want them to fold.

If there were players acting behind you, I think that argument would have a lot more merit. But there's no protection to be had here, unless SB 3-bets (and with your holding, I'm not sure that seeing a 3-bet on this board is a wonderful thing).

If you want to give me a fair range for blind defense (and I've seen quite a bit of terrible blind defense at the 5/10 and 10/20, though I don't play up there so I don't feel nearly as comfortable commenting on it as you), I'd be happy to enter it in, both in the SB's case and BB's case. I find SB's case very odd, as it's rare that I see a SB flat-call unless he's not a very good player, especially in a 1/2 structure).

And in a pot this small, I don't know why you want people to fold low pocket pairs. I want 22, 33, and 44 calling here.

Regardless, with most hand ranges you can put in here (and I think you need to be quite generous with SB's hand range, given his preflop play) and BB's flop call (and not a raise), your hand's equity will generally be going slightly upward on the turn for the majority of turn cards, not downward.

I think the only real big risk in this case is that waiting to raise may not work if SB decides his holding is no longer worth betting into two people.

Rob

[PassiveCaller]

Wouldn't waiting till the turn be more preferable in a situation where there's a larger split in equity based on the turn or with a fewer amount of really poor players? This hand isn't super strong and 22,44 and whatever junk calling 2 bets on the flop isn't bad. It's a cheap time to show some strength with a solid hand and get checked to on the turn. Lots of much worse hands call this flop reraise.

[Entity]

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Wouldn't waiting till the turn be more preferable in a situation where there's a larger split in equity based on the turn or with a fewer amount of really poor players? This hand isn't super strong and 22,44 and whatever junk calling 2 bets on the flop isn't bad. It's a cheap time to show some strength with a solid hand and get checked to on the turn. Lots of much worse hands call this flop reraise.

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The concern is not they'll fold the flop raise. It's that if you wait for a turn blank, the bet size doubles, and you have BB trapped in between. Additionally, when a real scare card comes, you can more accurately judge the proper play in a smallish pot if you are not known as "the aggressor." See my earlier example of BB hitting a gutshot on the turn: if you had raised, it's very likely BB will go for a checkraise on the turn. If you hadn't, it's likely he'll raise SB's likely bet, and you can ditch easily.

I'm not arguing that it's the best play here, because the pot is small and we're not worried about hand protection. But I think it's an ok play, given that when you're ahead you'll earn an extra BB on the turn the vast majority of the time you pull this move off.

Also, I don't get what "showing some strength" does for us here. I actually think it's more of a detriment than an advantage in most scenarios, this one included.

Rob

[PassiveCaller]

There was no concern about them folding to a flop raise?

I just think you're more likely to trap much worse hands for 2 bets on this flop then on the turn with this type of a holding and board texture. As the players get worse and I become more sure I could trap for 2 bets on the turn with worse holdings I'd probably be more inclined to wait. The equity split is such that waiting for a turn safe card here isn't much of a big deal.

A gut shot straight draw potentially check-raising us on the turn is not a reason to not check raise the flop however... Making that a consideration not to raise seems pretty strange to me.

[Entity]

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There was no concern about them folding to a flop raise?

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I don't see why they would. People will call one bet, then fold for one more? Maybe there's something I'm missing here. What range of hands from the SB/BB bets this flop (or calls SB's bet), then folds to a raise from us?

BTW, I do agree that the equity split here isn't a great amount. However, I still think being able to see how the turn unfolds is a rather large advantage, which you are lacking when you are known as the agressor.

Rob

[PassiveCaller]

I was merely questioning where you're comment about folding the flop even came from.. it was a unique creation for your post that didn't seem to respond to anything ?

Being able to see the turn unfold without being the aggressor is of more benefit when there's a larger equity split on the turn. All i'm trying to say here is nothing you're saying really is swaying it either way.

IF you want to discuss player profiles or situations where the turn raise would be preferable... then let's continue this but if you're going to keep going on about it being unbeneficial to show aggression to see the turn card then that's not right.

You've got to be willing to raise more turn cards then our poster listed above otherwise you may as well just raise the flop like Paluka said.

[Entity]

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I was merely questioning where you're comment about folding the flop even came from.. it was a unique creation for your post that didn't seem to respond to anything ?

Being able to see the turn unfold without being the aggressor is of more benefit when there's a larger equity split on the turn. All i'm trying to say here is nothing you're saying really is swaying it either way.

IF you want to discuss player profiles or situations where the turn raise would be preferable... then let's continue this but if you're going to keep going on about it being unbeneficial to show aggression to see the turn card then that's not right.

You've got to be willing to raise more turn cards then our poster listed above otherwise you may as well just raise the flop like Paluka said.

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I'll be honest, I don't quite understand what you're saying. It's phrased in a way that I can't understand your argument.

I am raising a lot more turn cards than the original poster said. And I agree with Paluka, that if you're only raising those turn cards, you'd be better off raising the flop. But I'd raise a Jack, a King, and a whole host of other cards in addition to the safe card.

My comment about "folding the flop" is that they will not fold the flop; the vast majority of the time, the SB will lead the turn as well, and you'll trap the SB, at the very least, for 2BB rather than 2SB. Sometimes the BB will also call the turn, and you'll trap him as well.

The two main advantages to raising the turn here are:

1) Value. You will often get an extra big bet in due to the SB's betting, and occasionally will get two extra big bets in, because the SB will lead the turn and occasionally trap the BB again.

2) Gaining a more accurate assessment of what the turn card "means" to you: information. If you raise the flop, you will bet the turn on the vast majority of turn cards; you will only find out if they were a good or bad turn card after being checkraised, though. I'm still not sure I'm elucidating this point properly, but it's very clear to me. Being able to see how the turn unfolds will often be beneficial to an analysis of where your hand stands, and whether you are in a position to extract value or fold.

Rob

[Entity]

An interesting counter to the decision to raise the turn is that many of the cards that look scary, but you like, are cards that SB will not bet at nearly as often: Kings, Queens, and Jacks may elicit a check from the SB. So I'm not sure how often the value argument holds up in this case.

I do really like having the opportunity to see the turn action unfold before proceeding here as well, though.

Rob

[PassiveCaller]

I was trying to argue that the texture of the board was such that you are more likely to get 2 bets on the flop now against a holding you really crush then on the turn. Our equity doesn't change much on the turn but there's a fair amount of cards that may be more scary not just to us but to the players involved. We don't know that they dont have something like KJ, or QJ,22,33,44 and are taking one off either. Make them consider next time whether they are going to take one off because you will raise. In the blinds I tend to give the people less credit for a legitmate holding here.

This is where some information about the blinds tendencies even however basic can help. Are these guys taking one off a lot and slowing down? Do they slow down often on scare cards. Maybe we don't know. But these are things we should be looking for.

I just wasn't sure why some of the things you were saying were shaping your decision making. Gut shot straight draws c/r'in and something fuzzy about showing strength which again seemed to be planning for a least common denominator situation.

[Entity]

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I was trying to argue that the texture of the board was such that you are more likely to get 2 bets on the flop now against a holding you really crush then on the turn. Our equity doesn't change much on the turn but there's a fair amount of cards that may be more scary not just to us but to the players involved. We don't know that they dont have something like KJ, or QJ,22,33,44 and are taking one off either. Make them consider next time whether they are going to take one off because you will raise. In the blinds I tend to give the people less credit for a legitmate holding here.

This is where some information about the blinds tendencies even however basic can help. Are these guys taking one off a lot and slowing down? Do they slow down often on scare cards. Maybe we don't know. But these are things we should be looking for.

I just wasn't sure why some of the things you were saying were shaping your decision making. Gut shot straight draws c/r'in and something fuzzy about showing strength which again seemed to be planning for a least common denominator situation.

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This makes perfect sense. BTW, you should probably note that in my original post, I said that raising the flop is fine. And I still agree, and I would raise the flop the vast majority of the time.

I amended saying that I like this play when the SB is very aggressive, as he'll often bet the flop and turn with a hand you are beating, and allow you to capture value that way.

The rest of my posts were trying to explain that despite what Peter was saying, your equity will very rarely go down on the turn (it will occasionally, but often it will go up 1-3%, or generally stay about the same).

I still think that being able to see the turn action unfold is important (this is what you've summed up as my "gutshot c/r'ing" point, which is not at all what I intended). Is my reasoning beind that clear, yet?

Rob