How's this line?

[mmcd]

I was gonna put this in an earlier post, but it was a little beyond the subject matter: Against a LAGgish player like this you will be getting raised on that turn almost always. Sometimes it will be TT JJ QQ KK AK AA, sometimes it will be 55 66 AQ AJ. My point about balancing was that even though this turn bet/fold is almost certainly -ev in a vaccum, it is mitigated if you are taking a similar line but lead 3-betting the turn when you have big hands. This may not be quite as applicable now that 30 games are unlimited and the players are generally a little worse, but back when there was only a few tables and mostly the same players, I started using this line a lot and could almost without fail get excessive action on my big hands by flatcalling a preflop 3-bet, checkraising the flop and calling a 3-bet, then lead 3-betting the turn.

You can't take this betfold line all of the time in this situation as it is giving up too much. You should probably just check-call the flop here at least a fair amount of the time.

As you played the flop here, a checkfold is certainly an acceptable turn play given that the K fell. Depending on your read of your opponent, the best play here may well be to check-call the turn (he may sometimes check behind here with hands that would have raised a turn bet like AQ or AJ and you can value bet a blank river) and check fold if he bets the river. Many players will just take the free showdown with hands you beat and only bet those you don't.

You probably didn't know this since you didn't include it in your post, but this guys preflop 3-betting range is important in deciding what to do on this turn. A 30/17/4 might 3-bet really light or he might just open a lot. If AJ or 44 55 66 are within his range here, than checkcalling the turn is probably best in a vaccum provided you are reasonably sure he'll take a free showdown with worse hands on the river. If these aren't really in his range or he'll follow through on the river with hands you beat, then check folding on the turn is probably best in a vaccum.

[anatta]

The problem with check-raising an aggressive player is that you gain no information when they play back at you and you are left to guess what to do. For example, you check-raise, you bet the turn, and get raised. Is he making a move with AK or does he have the big pair?

A more passive player will probably fold the turn with overcards (like in your plan) and, if he raises, allow you to fold.

I would just call the flop. See the turn. If it is a good card, bet. If it is an ace or a king, check and decide what to do. Unless he likes to three-bet your UTG raises with all sorts of hands, folding when the king hit, after keeping the pot kinda small, seems like a good play to me. You were, after all, hoping he had AK at one point in this hand I am sure!

[imashyboi]

I think this play depends on the read as well. Since you raised UTG this person could have your pockets beat already by a higher pair. It's also possible that he might have a hand like AK-AJ(even AT, small pairs). If you have been paying attention to his play you should be able to tell what sort of hands he'll 3bet in this position.

Flop: I would probably check raise him here too. He's going to bet here almost automatically once we check behind. If he holds a hand like AQ, AJ, or a smaller pair I'm giving him a chance to fold on the Turn. I'm folding if he makes it 3bets.

Turn: Since he just called I'm firing again on the Turn. The K is definitely scary but you have to keep playing aggressively until he shows you he has something. My play would still depend on the player. If he's tricky and real aggressive then I would probably check and call, maybe I can induce a bluff from him. If he's typical I'm betting out and hopefully he gives me more information.

River: My move here would be to bet out. I think this is a very powerful move, hopefully he folds a higher pair than mines if he's willing to bet/call the Turn with a pair or A high. Fold to a raise.

What do u guys think?

[imashyboi]

By the way, what does the numbers - 30/17/4 represents again? The first one is vpip/preflop aggresstion?/total aggresstion? I forgot them already. Also, what determines the numbers above.

[TStoneMBD]

a couple of posters in this thread mentioned that by checkraising the flop you give AK-AJ a chance to fold the turn unimproved, but you guys do realize that with 77 you are going to be behind more often then not right? there will also be times when Ax raises a blank turn and drives you out of the pot. checkcalling makes alot more sense to me here. youre trying to protect a hand that is far more likely than not behind. i dont understand it.

[SoBeDude]

The problem with check-raising an aggressive player is that you gain no information when they play back at you and you are left to guess what to do. For example, you check-raise, you bet the turn, and get raised. Is he making a move with AK or does he have the big pair?

I find this isn't exactly the case for me. I generally find that unless I'm against one of select few well-known maniacs, if I get popped on the turn again I'm behind and can safely lay down. IMO there are FEW people who will raise ME on the turn with nothing but overs (like AQ).

And I specifically LIKE check-raising an aggressive player and take the initiative from him when I'm unsure of where I am. I find playing back at them hard makes their play much more predicatble and readable. don't you?

I would just call the flop. See the turn. If it is a good card, bet. If it is an ace or a king, check and decide what to do. Unless he likes to three-bet your UTG raises with all sorts of hands, folding when the king hit, after keeping the pot kinda small, seems like a good play to me. You were, after all, hoping he had AK at one point in this hand I am sure!

I find I really hate this line. An aggressive player will pretty much just keep betting when I go limp regardless of his hand and the board (within some reason of course). So I hate this line as I have no idea on where I am, and by check-calling I have a ZERO chance of getting a better hand to fold here.

You were, after all, hoping he had AK at one point in this hand I am sure!

but with my line I can get him to lay down a hand like 99. So when he folded to my turn bet, THAT is what I was hoping he had [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

-Scott

[SoBeDude]

[ QUOTE ]
I think this play depends on the read as well. Since you raised UTG this person could have your pockets beat already by a higher pair. It's also possible that he might have a hand like AK-AJ(even AT, small pairs). If you have been paying attention to his play you should be able to tell what sort of hands he'll 3bet in this position.

Flop: I would probably check raise him here too. He's going to bet here almost automatically once we check behind. If he holds a hand like AQ, AJ, or a smaller pair I'm giving him a chance to fold on the Turn. I'm folding if he makes it 3bets.

Turn: Since he just called I'm firing again on the Turn. The K is definitely scary but you have to keep playing aggressively until he shows you he has something. My play would still depend on the player. If he's tricky and real aggressive then I would probably check and call, maybe I can induce a bluff from him. If he's typical I'm betting out and hopefully he gives me more information.

River: My move here would be to bet out. I think this is a very powerful move, hopefully he folds a higher pair than mines if he's willing to bet/call the Turn with a pair or A high. Fold to a raise.

What do u guys think?

[/ QUOTE ]

Remember yes, the K is a scare card, but it might be a scare card for him too. As this hand turned out, I bet the turn K and he folded. dunno what he had.

To your other post. first is VP$P, second is preflop raise %, third is an aggression factor. don't remember how its calculated, but < 0.5 is considered postflop passive, > than 1.5 is postflop aggressive.

-Scott

[mmcd]

[ QUOTE ]
but with my line I can get him to lay down a hand like 99. So when he folded to my turn bet, THAT is what I was hoping he had


[/ QUOTE ]

I think there is much better chance he had something like 44.

Just out of curiosity, how often is this guy 3-betting the flop with overs here? The way he played this hand seems really tame for 30/17/4 (I'm assuming these are ring game stats). That AF must come from him folding a lot.

[SoBeDude]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
but with my line I can get him to lay down a hand like 99. So when he folded to my turn bet, THAT is what I was hoping he had


[/ QUOTE ]

I think there is much better chance he had something like 44.

Just out of curiosity, how often is this guy 3-betting the flop with overs here? The way he played this hand seems really tame for 30/17/4 (I'm assuming these are ring game stats). That AF must come from him folding a lot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Great question, not sure. my number of hands on him is fairly low. Do you really think a guy with these stats would 3bet 44 preflop?

-Scott

[1800GAMBLER]

I don't see why you hate checkcalling here. I'd checkcall then lead the river, before betting the river i'm working out how often i'm expecting to get raised, so i can decide if i'm calling the reraise when it comes.

mmcd said like everything that needs to be covered.

FWIW, this was a great situation to call the flop, c/r the turn on blank cards and value bet the river.