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#1
09-26-2003, 01:54 PM
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Hand analysis - Value raise with flush draw?
Playing 2/4 at Party, 5 after the button. I'm dealt Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and usually I'd fold it in this position, but I'm leaving in a couple hands so I decide to play it. UTG folds, guy to my right calls, I call, fold, fold, guy who posted checks, call, button folds, SB completes, BB raises. Everyone who was in calls the raise, 6 to the flop (pre-flop raiser and one other before me, 3 after me), $24 in the pot.
Flop comes 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] I'm on a flush draw. BB pre-flop raiser bets, guy to my right calls. I consider whether to call or raise with my 2-1 odds of drawing the flush and a pre-flop raiser that will definitely call and 5 others that might. I'm looking for comments on the value raise. Will I make more money by calling and trying to get everyone to come along for the ride to the higher bets at the turn and river or should I be raising here before the scary 3-flush actually hits the board hoping to get at least one more caller besides the pre-flop raiser? 
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#3
09-26-2003, 04:13 PM
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Re: Hand analysis - Value raise with flush draw?
I'd raise here. I suspect you will get more than 2 callers so it should be a profitable bet. If you don't, you will probably be last to act, so you may be able to take a free card on the turn. Or if you catch a Q, you will be happy if most of the people folded to your raise. So I think it's an easy raise. No matter how many people call you should be happy.
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#4
09-26-2003, 04:27 PM
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Re: Hand analysis - Value raise with flush draw?
I'd probably just call in this position, with the preflop raiser acting first, you might get reraised and rarely will you get the free card.
usually I'd fold it in this position, but I'm leaving in a couple hands so I decide to play it. This is a serious leak. It's an insidious way to kill your earn.
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#5
09-26-2003, 04:36 PM
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Re: Hand analysis - Value raise with flush draw?
[ QUOTE ]
hear i would call because you want those others to stay in to increass your odds. [/ QUOTE ] When you have a flush draw with overcards, or even just one overcard, you often want to raise to knock opponents out and increase the likely hood that you can win with a one-pair hand. You're too focused on making your flush. You will usually have more outs than just a club. Wouldn't it be great to get KcQx to fold for two bets rather than draw to overcards for one bet?
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#6
09-27-2003, 11:56 AM
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Re: Hand analysis - Value raise with flush draw? RESULTS
[ QUOTE ]
Playing 2/4 at Party, 5 after the button. I'm dealt Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and usually I'd fold it in this position, but I'm leaving in a couple hands so I decide to play it. UTG folds, guy to my right calls, I call, fold, fold, guy who posted checks, call, button folds, SB completes, BB raises. Everyone who was in calls the raise, 6 to the flop (pre-flop raiser and one other before me, 3 after me), $24 in the pot. Flop comes 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] I'm on a flush draw. BB pre-flop raiser bets, guy to my right calls. I consider whether to call or raise with my 2-1 odds of drawing the flush and a pre-flop raiser that will definitely call and 5 others that might. I'm looking for comments on the value raise. Will I make more money by calling and trying to get everyone to come along for the ride to the higher bets at the turn and river or should I be raising here before the scary 3-flush actually hits the board hoping to get at least one more caller besides the pre-flop raiser? [/ QUOTE ] Here's what happened: I raised and everyone folded but the pre-flop raiser. Turn comes Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] He bets, I call. River is 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] for a board of 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] to complete my flush. He bets, I raise, he calls, I take down $56 pot. He had 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Thanks for the comments. While I normally wouldn't play QTs in this position, I think it is a playable hand there. I would have thrown away 35s or even QTo. In a later position, with more callers between the bettor and my raise, I think the raise is a no-brainer, but where I was I think it is a close call.
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#7
09-27-2003, 01:18 PM
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reevaluate your starting hand standards
While I normally wouldn't play QTs in this position, I think it is a playable hand there.
By the way, did you have Q9 suited or Q 10 suited? I thought you posted you had Q9 suited. You have five limpers to you on the button with a hand that plays well in a family pot. You mean to say you would normally fold Q 10 suited from the button after 5 limpers. I can understand if you didn't want to raise ( I might raise game dependant) however I cannot see an argument for folding. Post some more hands. IMO I think you might not understand the strength of certain hands.
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#8
09-27-2003, 02:38 PM
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Re: reevaluate your starting hand standards
[ QUOTE ]
While I normally wouldn't play QTs in this position, I think it is a playable hand there. By the way, did you have Q9 suited or Q 10 suited? I thought you posted you had Q9 suited. You have five limpers to you on the button with a hand that plays well in a family pot. You mean to say you would normally fold Q 10 suited from the button after 5 limpers. I can understand if you didn't want to raise ( I might raise game dependant) however I cannot see an argument for folding. Post some more hands. IMO I think you might not understand the strength of certain hands. [/ QUOTE ] Sorry, it was Q9s, but I was not on the button. As I stated above, I was B+5, which I take to be early position. There was only 1 limper when it got to me. On the button with 5 limpers ahead of me is a totally different story.
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#9
09-27-2003, 03:07 PM
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thanks for the clarification
Mr Jones,
You limped in ep with Q9 suited. Disregard my entire post.
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#10
09-27-2003, 05:07 PM
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Re: Hand analysis - Value raise with flush draw?
[ QUOTE ]
I'm dealt Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and usually I'd fold it in this position, but I'm leaving in a couple hands so I decide to play it. [/ QUOTE ] This is a huge, HUGE problem. If you lack the discipline to fold hands you know you should, you should leave the game IMMEDIATELY. Not in a few hands, not after this orbit, RIGHT NOW. Whenever you find yourself going on tilt, you should quit. Preflop: Muck it. Flop: Raise it. Turn: RAISE IT!!! You have top pair with a Q-high flush draw. If you don't have the best hand right now, you have plenty of outs. Raise it up! River: Obviously this is a raise.
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