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  #1  
Old 12-22-2005, 05:14 PM
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Default Unloading QQ, Why Is It So Hard??

In my attempted try at growing from rank amateur to accomplished amateur, by far the hardest thing I'm trying to get a handle on is letting go of dominated hands that appear to be strong.

Here is a case in point from tonight. Second or third hand into the MTT, I receive Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] in MP.

There is an EP limper, then folded to me and I raise to 5xBB from MP. Player to my left reraises 10xBB. I am the only caller.

Flop is J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

I think there's a good chance my Queens might be good, but the other player might have something, so I look for the check raise, and get it. The other player cold calls. The pot is about 600.

The turn is a blank (3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]) I have it in the back of my head from the flop cold call of my check raise that I could be up against AA or KK or a Jack, but quite possibly also TT or 99 or AKs.

But I prefer to bet out in this position, so I bet 300 into the pot hoping to get a bad call or a fold. Of course the other player puts in all in, I call with my remaining 850 or so. Sure enough my Queens are looking at Kings and I'm gone early.

His raise should be a clear sign that he has a strong hand, but there are times in the past where I've laid down a pair here only to see the player turn up AK or an under pair.

Why is it so hard to let this hand go when part of the mind says they're good and another part says they're dominated?

Is this the hardest situation in poker or am I making too much of it?
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  #2  
Old 12-22-2005, 06:08 PM
LearnedfromTV LearnedfromTV is offline
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Default Re: Unloading QQ, Why Is It So Hard??

In general, yes, these are tough situations. People lose a lot of money on dominated overpairs and overpairs v. sets.

Here's the thing about this hand. Forget what hand you held for a second and think about the series of bets you made. Big preflop raise, reraised, and you call. Board JJx, two suit. You checkraise, get called, and bet the blank turn.

You've represented QQ *minimum*. A fair rule of thumb is - if the hand you hold as at the weaker end of the range you are representing, and the other guy thinks he has you beat, he has you beat.

The only hand he could hold that doesn't beat you is AK spades (or some very small chance of other spades and some small chance of TT-99). None of these are very likely because you have done everything possible to say "I have QQ-AA or a jack and I'm going to the felt." If he's going to push a weaker pair or a semibluff anyway, he earned the chips this time.
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  #3  
Old 12-22-2005, 06:09 PM
Dave D Dave D is offline
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Default Re: Unloading QQ, Why Is It So Hard??

5x the bb is a lot, 4x is more reasonable. Subtle difference, but it helps in controling pot size later.

In the first few hands of a tourney, you played this fine. I'd be looking to get all my money in, especially when my Queens are still an overcard pair. Only two hands beat you pre and post flop, villian had one of them, it's rare and unlikely.

You have to consider that in any online tournament, early on, people play crazy. You could have just as easily seen any other pocket pair, or AK, or really anything. You wan't to get paid by those donks. Once in a while you're going to have this situation happen, but you shouldn't let it affect your play.

Think about how much you'd have if you won this hand. That's what matters, not the one time you got unlucky.

It's an online tourney, go ahead and open another one. For every time this happens and you think he has AA/KK, he'll have 22 at least a couple times. It's just the nature of the awful play we see online.

Overall, I'd do the same thing every time.
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Old 12-22-2005, 07:44 PM
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Default Re: Unloading QQ, Why Is It So Hard??

Two other ways you can play this are:

1) Reraise preflop and if the other player pushes then you can be pretty sure you're up against AA or KK. This does depend on the other player but early in tourneys you won't have much of a read. I haven't seen that many players willing to come back over the top again with hands other than AA or KK.

This is one of the major reasons you need to pay attention at the table as there are many players who will go all-in with less than QQ so paying attention should help. And if your QQ runs into AA or KK then chalk it up to bad luck for that tourney and move on. Yeah, it's not a 'bad beat' but it is unlucky to have your big hands run into bigger hands. It's rare not to lose any chips on a hand like QQ.

2) You're second option is to lead at the flop instead of going for the check raise. Most of the time you will fold out AK or AQ. If they come back over the top of you on the flop you can be fairly sure your QQ is beat and if they just call it'll be easier to check/fold the turn since you won't have invested as many chips as a check/raise takes.

I generally don't worry about going broke with QQ too much if I'm in a heads up pot with no over cards. It's just too hard to worry about running into AA or KK with the short stacks you play with online and the fast blind structures.
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Old 12-22-2005, 08:05 PM
vipchump vipchump is offline
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Default Re: Unloading QQ, Why Is It So Hard??

If you reraise pf badgerpro I could not see folding this at all... I think your range of AA/KK is quite small... I see early stages Axs, any pair looking for a coin flip etc getting all their money in.

Your next paragraph is right on about paying attention to players, thats something i lack, especially since I consider almost everyone who isn't a familiar name a donk...
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Old 12-22-2005, 08:11 PM
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Default Re: Unloading QQ, Why Is It So Hard??

[ QUOTE ]
Two other ways you can play this are:

1) Reraise preflop and if the other player pushes then you can be pretty sure you're up against AA or KK. This does depend on the other player but early in tourneys you won't have much of a read. I haven't seen that many players willing to come back over the top again with hands other than AA or KK.

2) You're second option is to lead at the flop instead of going for the check raise. Most of the time you will fold out AK or AQ. If they come back over the top of you on the flop you can be fairly sure your QQ is beat and if they just call it'll be easier to check/fold the turn since you won't have invested as many chips as a check/raise takes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re 1)
This thought crossed my mind. Yes, I agree it is very often true in the low entry MTTs that I play ($30 avg +/-), a reraise preflop is probably 4-1 or less against not being AA or KK.

However, this is also low level thinking. There are some super-agro early round players (e.g., P0kerH0) who are operating at a much higher level of play and are likely to fire back with a lot of different hands for that very reason.

Re 2)
Also considered this option. I had my cursor over the fold button at one point during the decision making process. I should have "listened" to one of the Sklansky edicts, which is if you are in doubt then you should probably fold.

This hand was just one case in point to illustrate the larger problem in skill growth, which is knowing how to get away from hands that look good but have a strong possibility of being dominated (e.g., drawing to 2 or 3 outs at most).
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Old 12-22-2005, 08:38 PM
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Default Re: Unloading QQ, Why Is It So Hard??

Good post, Learned. But in online tournaments with raising blinds I don't know if you can fold QQ to a JJ2 situation. By the time you've figured out that he doesn't have AK and must have AA and KK most of your stack is in the pot. I think that if you ditch this hand preflop/flop it's too weak/tight and by the turn you're pot committed. It's a tough situation, one that I'm not good enough at.
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Old 12-22-2005, 08:38 PM
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Default Re: Unloading QQ, Why Is It So Hard??

[ QUOTE ]
If you reraise pf badgerpro I could not see folding this at all... I think your range of AA/KK is quite small... I see early stages Axs, any pair looking for a coin flip etc getting all their money in.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ex.

3rd hand of tourney and both players have initial starting stacks (use PStars setup).

t1500 stacks/Blinds t10/20/Hero is OOP

Hero raises t100
Villian raises to t200
Hero reraises to t400-500
Villian pushes...

<=$5 tourney... i call QQ is good to often still

$5< - $20... 50% of the time, probably more, I think you see AA or KK. Most of the rest of the time it's probably AK.

$20 - $30... 65-70%

$30<... proably 75% or more.

If somebody is putting in the 4th raise with less than AA or KK with stacks that deep I will probably have more shots at their chips where I am a 3:1 or better favorite.

Go read some of the Pot-Limit/No-Limit threads where you are playing with 50-100BB stacks consistenly and see how many would call QQ all-in in that situation without a read.
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  #9  
Old 12-22-2005, 08:51 PM
LearnedfromTV LearnedfromTV is offline
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Default Re: Unloading QQ, Why Is It So Hard??

[ QUOTE ]
Good post, Learned. But in online tournaments with raising blinds I don't know if you can fold QQ to a JJ2 situation. By the time you've figured out that he doesn't have AK and must have AA and KK most of your stack is in the pot. I think that if you ditch this hand preflop/flop it's too weak/tight and by the turn you're pot committed. It's a tough situation, one that I'm not good enough at.

[/ QUOTE ]

This line is what puts you in that position. There is a decent chance you go broke when he has KK no matter what you do. But a weaker line widens the range you are representing, which makes it less likely you go broke and increases the number of chips you win the times you are ahead.
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  #10  
Old 12-22-2005, 09:00 PM
LearnedfromTV LearnedfromTV is offline
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Default Re: Unloading QQ, Why Is It So Hard??

What are the blinds here anyway, that the pot is only 600 after 20xBB goes in pre, then you check raise the flop and get called? 5/10 with 1500 chip stacks? Something seems wrong.

With 100 BB or less stacks, it's reasonably hard to get away from KK/AA v QQ especially if you're playing against standard loose opposition.

In a lot of online tourneys I just push preflop or reraise and push the flop and chalk it up to bad luck when I hit AA/KK, because I know i'm getting called by worse hands too. But with deeper stacks and/or better competition you have to put more thought into how you play this kind of hand.
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