bet/fold vs check/call on the river

[meanjean]

I've been hanging in the HUSH forum for a while and it appears that many people seem to advocate the bet fold method when a scare card falls on the river. For example, the third to the flush or something that pairs the board. I see this as wrong in most cases but am willing to be corrected. Is anybody willing to give a good example of when a bet/fold is correct on the river? Something clear cut.

Thanks, I'm just trying to "get" the logic behind the bet/fold concept as compared to check call.

It's tough to comment in the abstract. Is there a particular hand that you have in mind. The "right play" would depend on a lot of factors, including the following:
How many ppl left in the hand
How those ppl bet throughout the hand
General betting patterns of those remaining in the hand
Strength of own hand
etc...

[Onaflag]

If there is one poker concept that confuses me the most, this is it. It costs the same to check/call as it does to bet/fold except in the former, you get to see a showdown.

This may very well be a leak I need to fix, but if I bet the river and get raised, I normally call. I should look into PT to see what I'm actually doing and how I'm doing at it, but I think the concept is that by betting, you're giving yourself another way to win which is by having your opponent fold even with what may be the best hand. You don't get that opportunity by check/calling. You actually NEED the best hand to win and can therefore only win one way.

Now for the disclaimer: I could be full of it and not know what I'm talking about.

Onaflag...........

I use check/call a lot more than bet/fold. The advantage of bet,fold is that you don't have to show your cards if you're not the best hand. By not showing your cards you don't allow the table to get any information on you. Plus as one person has said, you get the chance to win the hand right there. When that fourth club comes on the river and you bet, you're basically saying "I have it, do you?" and his raise answers back "yes". A specific example that you had in mind might make the discussion a little better.

[GMan42]

I think the biggest advantage of the bet/fold line isn't necessarily to get your opponent to fold the better hand, but to make sure that when you're ahead and he has something marginal (like TPTK against TPWK), you usually still earn the extra bet on the river. And it costs you nothing extra when you fold to a raise.

This play is best used heads-up when you're against a reasonable opponent who would usually check behind to a river scare card, and who you'd be 99% certain has the better hand if he raises. If you're against a habitual river bettor who'll never take a free showdown when checked to, then just check/call instead--he'll sometimes bet hands that he would have folded to your bet.

[MyTurn2Raise]

My biggest leak is my check/call on the river....I do it too much. My river aggression is far too low. The idea is that you are ahead the majority of the time, because you're playing better starting cards and better play on the flop and turn. You should bet out to make sure to get that 1BB. The positive result will happen far more than the negative effect. It does rely on being able to fold though when you bet and someone raises.

[JoshuaD]

Reasons to bet/fold:

<ul type="square">[*]There are alot of hands that will pay you off.[*]You don't think villian will bluff-raise.[*]worse hands will check behind, but better hands will bet, which you'll have to call anyway.[*]There are multiple opponents calling you down where one may have improved to beat you, but if not, there's alot of value in a bet.[/list]
Reasons to check/call:
<ul type="square">[*]There doesn't seem to be too many hands that will pay off.[*]To induce a bluff from a hand that would otherwise check behind. [*]You think there's a good chance you'll get raised by a better hand, but you can't fold.[*]When you think villian will bet most of his hands when he's behind and checked to, and he will raise his better hands when you bet. [/list]
There are other reasons, but this is a pretty good basis. You need to weigh all these ideas, because it's rarely clear cut.

[Buz]

I'm no expert, but I'll share my opinion with you.

The situation to avoid is betting when your opponent will only call or raise if they have you beat and fold when they have the worst hand. Your bet is then all downside risk and no upside. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] That's the problem with scary cards on the river. If your opponent has been calling you all the way down to the river, it looks like they have been drawing. The scare card may very well be just the card they were looking for.

Bet/Fold works best when a non-scare card comes. It continues the image of you having the best hand, knowing it and leading out. You'll sometimes get a better (marginal) hand to fold and often get paid off by marginally worse hands. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[TaintedRogue]

I believe they could only be advocating this philosphy because they are seeing their opponents fold much more often than they call.
This may be because their opponent is on a draw, on a flop that has two possible draws, one of the draws is made on the river, they bet and their opponent folds because it is not the draw they were on and there are two overcards on the board to their pair. So, they had the best hand to begin with and by betting out, they lost out on the chance of their opponent betting their weak holding on the river, when they had top pair along with them, but didn't have as good of a kicker. In those situations, wouldn't you want to check and induce a bet?

For this play to be profitable, their opponent would have to call much more often with their weaker holding than they would fold, and, hardly ever bluff with a raise. In addition, the more money in the pot before the river betting, the more dangerous this play is to being -EV, because you lose the whole pot on those rare occassions that your opponent raises with the worse hand. So they must be talking about a nominal pot size.
On the other side of the coin, if you never bet your TPTC on the river when a str8 comes, you will never get an under pair to bet, if he knows you. On the upside, there are a lot of people on-line, so with PT, you can determine how many players in the game have a lot of experience playing with you.

I don't see how this would be profitable, unless, you are on a str8 draw, with a str8 &amp; flush draw possible on the flop, the flush comes and you bet out with nothing. This is profitable even if he calls, as you will get more action on the river when you do have the best hand.

As to your question, I am not saying that I think you should never do it, as betting out with TPTC on the river against a possible flush and having your opponent just call with his flush, holding 65s, will get you more action on the river.

[Lash]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks, I'm just trying to "get" the logic behind the bet/fold concept as compared to check call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Head up on the end – Hero is first to act

Bet / Fold (It seems to me this is more commonly correct than check / call)
-When you have a weak or nothing hand that can’t stand / does not want a showdown…If the pot odds exist to make a river bluff profitable…bet.
-When your bet looks natural in context of the board texture and previous action in the hand.
-When your opponent will only raise with a better than average hand.

Check / Call
-You have an above average hand that can’t stand a raise.
-A bet would look suspicious based on board texture / previous action (it will only be called / raised by hands that have it beat on average)
-Your opponent tends to bluff / overplay.

I’m coming to the conclusion that in these situations I should be factoring in:

1- Hand strength
2- Board texture / previous action
3- Opponent’s tendencies
4- ???

I’m omitting relationships with opponents as a consideration. The truth of the matter is, most players do not apply higher levels of thinking in their decision making process. It is worth noting however that against an extremely savvy opponent, you should factor it in if you are good at splitting hairs in these situations.

What would some of you more experienced players rate the top 3 reasons above in order of importance? Anything to add to the top 3 I listed above?

Any input on this would be appreciated.