Two Plus Two Older Archives  

Go Back   Two Plus Two Older Archives > General Poker Discussion > Beginners Questions

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old 11-29-2005, 02:58 PM
Arnfinn Madsen Arnfinn Madsen is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 449
Default Re: Ever wonder why 2+2 is going downhill?

You did not do much to explain your position either, so you should maybe not throw the 1st stone....... [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img].

Evan's post annoyed me too, but I chose to ignore at the thread. He claims something (correct or not) and his 2nd post sounded to me like "I know how to play poker, so I don't have to explain, since what I say is right". It is arrogant and impolite, and a bit better should be expected from a mod.

Is 2+2 going downhill? No, still there are many good threads with good contributions from good posters.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 11-29-2005, 03:03 PM
stinkypete stinkypete is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Toronto
Posts: 412
Default Re: Ever wonder why 2+2 is going downhill?

[ QUOTE ]

Maybe you are right. I guess I should have said "I don't see a significant difference in monetary return between folding and capping. If I fold, I lose zero. If I cap, I expect a very small return in the longrun, so I don't see much difference between the two.

I actually thought my response was self-evident. Perhaps it was not.

[/ QUOTE ]

this explanation is just a wordier version of your original post. it doesn't add anything.

how about explaining how you arrive at roughly 0 EV for a cap, and then explaining why a cap is better than a call?
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 11-29-2005, 03:04 PM
dogmeat dogmeat is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 1
Default Re: Ever wonder why 2+2 is going downhill?

[ QUOTE ]
i know of quite a few posters that always post well developed responses that to me, are always self-evident. i often dont read their replies or i skim them to get to the good stuff. i realize however that to many other people their thoughts might not be self-evident, so they are doing them a service. lately when im replying to a thread i dont post self-evident reasoning when i know the op knows my thoughts. if i have something to say that i think someone might not take into account i say it. your reasoning for why the cap or fold doesnt matter is indeed self-evident, but i also think its wrong. evan's arguement is also likely self-evident. i personally appreciate it when posters reply to my threads with correct answers, whether they elaborate on them or not. twoplustwo isnt going downhill because of oneliners. people (usually) post oneliners because their thoughts are self-evident and dont do anybody a service.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you for your response. I obvously don't play on your level, or on Evan's. Given the limited information about the texture of the particular game, the players, and their current psychological state of mind, let me state that I don't see a large financial difference between folding the hand to the reraise, and capping - since in the long run I think the cap will have only a small return.

At this point, based on your statement that Evan's reply was self-evident,I will make the assumption that capping has a larger return than I originally thought. However, I still don't know this for fact because I obviously am not a strong enough player to read between the lines.

Perhaps I need to read more, and post less.

Dogmeat [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 11-29-2005, 03:16 PM
TStoneMBD TStoneMBD is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Rome, NY
Posts: 268
Default Re: Ever wonder why 2+2 is going downhill?

btw im not even saying the cap is right or not. i dont even know the hand/situation. i just think that saying capping or folding makes little/no difference is probably very wrong.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 11-29-2005, 03:35 PM
BottlesOf BottlesOf is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 863
Default Re: Ever wonder why 2+2 is going downhill?

Neither response of Evan's are sarcatic. You should look that word up.

However, the first one wasn't helpful, I'm guilty of quick responses like that too sometimes.

The second response and his second point in the second response is dead on. The burden is on the person making the claim that something isn't the way it seems. To clarify, raising and folding are two very different actions, saying that choosing one over the other doesn't matter, i.e. saying they produce the same effect (EVwise) is the bolder statement and requires more justification than objecting to it does, IMO.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 11-29-2005, 03:45 PM
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Ever wonder why 2+2 is going downhill?

[ QUOTE ]


Too often threads becoming pissing contests where everyone tries to sound like an expert and bash everyone else.



[/ QUOTE ]

I think this quote is most representative of reality, maybe not SO MUCH in the case of the mods, but certainly it holds true for many many underlings.

Cambraceres
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 11-29-2005, 03:49 PM
Niediam Niediam is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Michigan
Posts: 823
Default Re: Ever wonder why 2+2 is going downhill?

The problem with this forum is that it used to be filled with intelligent people looking to work on their game while now it is filled with people who literally can't understand the concepts in a book like SSH or HoH.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 11-29-2005, 04:14 PM
dogmeat dogmeat is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 1
Default Recap of original thread and hand

Alright, the original thread on this subject was this:

It's a $50/$100 game online.

MP1 raises and is 23/11
MP2 reraises and is 22/9

Player with JJ folds. Is this the right move?

I did not consider the OP's options to include cold calling. I considered only a cap or a fold.

I know nothing about the rest of the table, but guessed that there would not be any callers if the JJ hand capped.

If JJ caps, he assumes that the original raiser will call, and the reraiser would have raised with hands that will include AA, KK, QQ, JJ, TT, as well as AK. Also assume that these are the hands that the first raiser will hold.

Given this information, the times that these hands hit (very roughly - disregarding whether any of these are mutually exclusive) in 1000 is:

AA 5x, KK 5x, QQ 5x, JJ 2.5x, TT 5x, AK 9x.

JJ wins 45% of the time when both opponents hold TT, and AK (14 times). JJ wins 24% of the time when both hold a small pair or JJ (2.5 times). JJ wins 18% of the time when either opponent holds AA,KK, or QQ (15 times). If the pot becomes $1850 by the end, with JJ putting in $600 each hand, and this rough math assumes 31.5 hands, then it costs $18,900 to play, and returns $17,800. Clearly folding is a better option.

If, however, I can add 99 to a possible hand of the reraiser, then I can expect to win $1100.

So, I can either lose $1100 or win $1100. I don't see a difference between either capping or folding.

Now if I think the raisers will raise with even weaker hands, then I certainly want to cap. I probably get enough extra income to also make this a cap instead of a fold if I am pretty sure I will pick up another caller.

I'm done.

Dogmeat [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 11-29-2005, 05:10 PM
sthief09 sthief09 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: duffman is thrusting in the direction of the problem (mets are 9-13, currently on a 1 game winning streak)
Posts: 1,245
Default Re: Ever wonder why 2+2 is going downhill?

your first statement was stated authoritatively. it was also wrong. if there is a chance youre wrong just say "i think" in front of it and it pisses people off a lot less.

EV-wise maybe it doesnt make a huge difference, but EV is not all that matters. you have to know how to make the decisions so when a situation with a big difference comes up, youll play it well

you are completely in the wrong here
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 11-29-2005, 05:13 PM
TStoneMBD TStoneMBD is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Rome, NY
Posts: 268
Default Re: Recap of original thread and hand

i hate it when i see good posters say stuff like "its too close to matter" or "i dont think either action will affect your winrate much". saying stuff like that just means that you dont know what the right play/frequency is or how to logically come to a conclusion.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:45 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.