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  #21  
Old 11-26-2005, 03:01 PM
mason55 mason55 is offline
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Default Re: AQs, 8 left, Stars 10+1, feeling stuck

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I don't understand why OP would find it easy to fold AQs to a raise. I would fold it in some situations, but usually I am calling or reraising.

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Err I was thinking about a real raise when I wrote that. And I did't mean that I would necessarily do it, just that I wouldn't feel bad if I did.

Anyway, I'm glad to see that this hand crated a little discussion and that the situation isn't as cut and dry as I thought it would be. Personally, at the time, I felt like a push was the best play. Taking down the pot right now will be +$40k for me without seeing a flop, something that sounds really really attractive. The ONLY hand that I REALLY don't want to see that a stop and go will get rid of (and a push won't) is AK. Other than that, I can see villain calling my push with any PP once we take a flop. However, if villain is feeling risk averse he might lay down 22-66 here if I push (although doubtful since he's already put $30k in, I can see it happening if the jump from 8th to 7th means somthing to him).

As far as I can tell those are the benefits to SnG vs. Push. After weighing them all, I decided that a push would be better and hope that he would call me with something like KQ/AJ.

Any flaws in my thought process here?
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  #22  
Old 11-26-2005, 03:05 PM
mason55 mason55 is offline
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Default Re: Stars 10+1, feeling stuck

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I am not folding AQs at a final table with 13BBs and anyone that does is a nut.

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You start the hand with more than that. Having 13 BBs left and being postflop is a different beast, and I don't think yours is the best perspective here. That said, if you've read what I've said elsewhere in this thread, in this particular situation I'm almost never folding either. That still doesn't mean this is necessarily a push/fold decision preflop.

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Ok, let me ask this. What hands are folding the flop to a SnG that are calling a push that we want to call. What hands are folding the flop to a SnG that are calling a push that we want to CALL.

I think the second group is much bigger and we have a much bigger advantage against those hands. Therefore, I want as much money as possible from THOSE hands since I've resigned myself to the fact that it's all going in against any hand that has me dominated (and probably almost all PPs) at some point.
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  #23  
Old 11-26-2005, 03:15 PM
gumpzilla gumpzilla is offline
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Default Re: Stars 10+1, feeling stuck

[ QUOTE ]

Ok, let me ask this. What hands are folding the flop to a SnG that are calling a push that we want to call. What hands are folding the flop to a SnG that are calling a push that we want to CALL.

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There aren't very many hands at all that I want to call me PF instead of folding if I push. Dominated A's and Q's are about it, and in that category I lose most of the aces and probably all the Q's except KQ maybe. Keeping these kinds of hands around and stacking them if we both hit is potentially quite lucrative. Despite what you're saying, I think a stop and go (which you may not even need to do, you can probably get away with less than a push on the flop) does lose some pocket pairs that you really would like to move out. Pushing will frequently get rid of some of these as well, but the stop and go (or just a flop bet) is probably more effective at it.

The stop and go will also drive out hands that we dominate post flop, but the thing is that I think most of those hands fold when we push preflop, and there's no good way to extract value from them in the other circumstance, so I don't think you're missing much in that situation.
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  #24  
Old 11-26-2005, 03:20 PM
tshak tshak is offline
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Default Re: Stars 10+1, feeling stuck

[ QUOTE ]
13 BBs leaves you far from crippled, and the prospect of stacking TP with a weaker kicker is pretty exciting to me. If you push now, I think most of the hands that call are ones that you'd wish hadn't.

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This is where I think M is more important than BB. With the ante's this would leave us with 8M, or 8 orbits before we are blinded out and 3 orbits before we start getting desperate. I think that a lot of hands call here that we don't mind a call from, like 88-JJ. We also fold smaller pairs and resteals. The min-raise from Villian could be a monster, or it could be a test to see how much you really like your hand (i.e. testing to see if you're raising with any two). It could also just be a bad resteal attempt. At a $10 we also can't throw out the possiblity that AJs and maybe even ATs is calling a push. If we push we are getting 1.5:1 on our money when called. These are pretty good odds considering the situation. We also increase our stack by 40% the few times we take it down unconstested. Push.
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  #25  
Old 11-26-2005, 03:30 PM
tshak tshak is offline
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Default Re: Stars 10+1, feeling stuck

[ QUOTE ]
The stop and go will also drive out hands that we dominate post flop, but the thing is that I think most of those hands fold when we push preflop, and there's no good way to extract value from them in the other circumstance, so I don't think you're missing much in that situation.


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This is a good point. So the question for me is, what is more valuable? Folding the 22-66 (maybe even 77, 88) and taking down a pretty nice pot uncontested, or the SnG which we'll stack off if we both hit and we'll be way ahead most of the time. On the other hand, at a $10 I think that some weaker A's (AJ,AT) and even KQ will think they "have overs" and call preflop anyway. I would also feel sick when the K9s resteal outflops me. Nevertheless, your point is good and while I still prefer a push I think that you've illustrated that SnG is a great option as well.
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  #26  
Old 11-26-2005, 09:02 PM
gumpzilla gumpzilla is offline
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Default Re: Stars 10+1, feeling stuck

Bumping this for the nighttime crowd; I'm curious how general the preference for pushing vs. calling is.
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  #27  
Old 11-26-2005, 10:56 PM
mason55 mason55 is offline
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Default Re: Stars 10+1, feeling stuck

[ QUOTE ]
Bumping this for the nighttime crowd; I'm curious how general the preference for pushing vs. calling is.

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Thanks, I'm curious too since this doesn't seem as clear cut as I first thought. I can see the benefits of doing both and I'm wondering if I'm there's a big drawback to either one.
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  #28  
Old 11-26-2005, 11:17 PM
Melchiades Melchiades is offline
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Default Re: AQs, 8 left, Stars 10+1, feeling stuck

Don't see any merit for a SnG, you have preflop FE here.

The minreraise is a bit scary since people love do do it with AA/KK. I call and take a flop here.
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  #29  
Old 11-26-2005, 11:47 PM
mason55 mason55 is offline
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Default Re: AQs, 8 left, Stars 10+1, feeling stuck

[ QUOTE ]
Don't see any merit for a SnG, you have preflop FE here.

The minreraise is a bit scary since people love do do it with AA/KK. I call and take a flop here.

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If the minraise has you scared of AA/KK (which I agree with) how are you playing a Q high flop?
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  #30  
Old 11-26-2005, 11:55 PM
utmt40 utmt40 is offline
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Default Re: AQs, 8 left, Stars 10+1, feeling stuck

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Don't see any merit for a SnG, you have preflop FE here.

The minreraise is a bit scary since people love do do it with AA/KK. I call and take a flop here.

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If the minraise has you scared of AA/KK (which I agree with) how are you playing a Q high flop?

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This is why you just shove them in here.
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