Skill in Limit vs NL

[Reef]

limit - betting for value and pushing small edges
NL - playing without any mistakes

[thomastem]

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limit - betting for value and pushing small edges
NL - playing without any mistakes

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In NL you can get away with more aggressive mistakes. Further if you are playing your opponents hand then reading your opponent becomes a bigger part in your decision making.

Since reading is always going to be on more incomplete information than math then you will make more mistakes in NL.

If you are only using complete information in NL you are not playing as strong of a game as you can be and in limit almost the opposite is true.

[Gregg777]

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By definition NL is a harder game than limit, there is no debate.

That doesn't mean limit games are easier to beat. In fact I think the opposite is true.


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I think you're contradicting yourself there. If game A is harder to beat than game B, then the game B cannot be harder to beat than game A. I can draw you a chart.

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He didn't contradict himself. He said NL is harder, but limit is harder to beat.

If NL is tougher to master, there can easily be fewer "good, but not great" players, whereas in limit, because it is easier, there is more "good, but not great" players.

Therefore to dominate in Limit, you have to be in a much higher percentile (overall skill level), than you do in NL.

I am not saying this is true or not, just that I understand his point and he did not contradict himself.

[gomberg]

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The VP$IP of a good player in NL is typically lower than that of an equally good limit player.

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This is very untrue. There are some very successful high stakes players in NL w/ VPIP over 30, the same cannot be said about a good limit player. There are many different styles that can win in NL, while this is almost always tight aggressive in limit.

[thejameser]

i think the primary difference is that you cannot protect your hands on the flop as well. the flop bet in structured limit is two-tiered, that is the first two rounds are 1/2 the size of the second two rounds. for this reason an expert limit player must make more creative plays to protect his hand on the flop to maintian/maximize his winrate over his playing time. also, the swings in Limit are much more difficult to overcome in the short-term which can prove to frustrate even the most experienced poker player if patience and not just understanding, but accepting the variance of the game and the amount that short term luck plays in the situation.

[ptmusic]

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3)hand reading is much more difficult. Because a wider range of hands are playable, and because every bet is the same size, a person's hand isnt as easily read as it is in NL.

6)there are more actions per hand than in NL. Every action you make gives away a little bit of information about your hand.

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I agree with your points, except for #3. I find it harder to read hands in NL than in Limit. I think your #6 point helps explain why: you get to see your opponent make many more actions, each of which give you more information that can help you read his hand.

Plus, NL players tend to change gears much more often, so their betting patterns are more often deceptive, making their hands harder to read.

-ptmusic

[trentk269]

The toughest part of limit is knowing how to push a small edge just hard enough, without inadvertently bumping up the pot odds that wind up justifying calls by the chasers. The second hardest part is watching a chaser stay in for two or more raises and draw out on you when you're holding a top pair or trips. I do think that lots of marginal call situations come up in limit that simply don't exist in NL due to the fact that the leader will usually bump up the betting and force your come hands out.

On the other hand, I've seen lots of NL players (usually new) that bump it up without thinking of what their opponent might be calling with. This is a tough skill to master, too- which is why, I suspect, only a handful of players make it to the pro level (and why so much of the pro game is NL).

[Snoogins47]

This argument is nigh impossible to actually answer.

Against very bad players, there's no doubt that NL is a much easier game. I don't think this can even come close to being argued.

Other than that, NL players on the snobby side of life vastly underestimate the skill FL takes, and FL players on the snobby side vastly underestimate the skill NL takes.

[Snoogins47]

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3)hand reading is much more difficult. Because a wider range of hands are playable, and because every bet is the same size, a person's hand isnt as easily read as it is in NL.

6)there are more actions per hand than in NL. Every action you make gives away a little bit of information about your hand.

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I agree with your points, except for #3. I find it harder to read hands in NL than in Limit. I think your #6 point helps explain why: you get to see your opponent make many more actions, each of which give you more information that can help you read his hand.

Plus, NL players tend to change gears much more often, so their betting patterns are more often deceptive, making their hands harder to read.

-ptmusic

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I tend to be able to read people much more accurately in NL too. At least when it matters.

[bokla]

In my experience which is not really waste, in small tables like 0.12/0.25 NL and 1/2 Limit, it is harder to make ppl fold if you have the best hand in the flop. A pot sized bet is often enough if you want to close the action in NL. But you can be badly beaten in a limit game of small size because it offers some pot odds and with the schooling effect it makes the hands profitable for many draws. So, in my opinion, you should have a good read of your opponents in order to be able to protect your hand with a check-raise. You should know the aggressive player in the table and make sure he/she will bet if you just check with top pair. Thus, I think in limit games you depend more on your opponents when you try to protect your hand but in NL you can just get the pot by betting and offering others unprofitable pot-odds. What I think is this; if the others are worse than you, u can easily trap them, make them fold or squeeze them in NL. If there are many suckers in a limit table, their low calling standards can make it profitable for any hand to stay in the game and therefore you need to have the best hand to win in a table like that.