QQ heads up vs limp raiser

caggin · #1 03-22-2005, 12:32 AM

I have a lot of trouble with hands that get heads up. Am I ahead, am I behind? I don't know.

Villain was 66/4/.8 over 53 hands.

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
2 folds, MP1 calls, 2 folds, Hero raises, 3 folds, MP1 3-bets, Hero caps, MP1 calls.

Villain's aggression numbers don't seem very high, so I'm a little concerned about the limp-raise. But I'm not ready to give him credit for AA or KK yet (I've seen the limp-raise a lot lately, with non-premium hands). 

Flop: (9.50 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP1 bets, Hero calls.

Should I have raised here? I figured him for AA, KK, JJ (which kill me), or a smaller pocket pair, or maybe AK, AQ. I had just read a thread about check/calling when you're either way ahead or way behind, and was applying that here, but looking back, I'm not sure if this was the correct play. I think I should raise if there's a good chance he's playing overcards, or a flush draw. If he reraises me, then I can slow down. So what do you think? Is just calling ok here? Or should I have raised?

Turn: (5.75 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP1 bets, Hero calls.

Now I'm in trouble if does have AK. But I'm not ready to give it up because there's a chance he has a smaller pair. Now I think it's correct to go into call down mode. If he's ahead, I lose less. If I'm ahead, I let him continue to bluff. Correct? Or do you fold here? 

River: (7.75 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP1 bets, Hero calls.

If he had checked, should I bet this? 

Final Pot: 9.75 BB

NAU_Player · #2 03-22-2005, 12:34 AM

I raise the flop, if he 3-bets I call.
When the turn comes K, i go into calldown mode. (might be a leak by me though.)

Stuey · #3 03-22-2005, 12:44 AM

I raise the flop and cap it if possible.
What flop were you hoping for? I like this one

I raise the turn also.
Hard for me to explain why. Good chance I am wrong but I would do it. This guy can't be trusted if he needs to improve I want to make it expensive for him. If he reraises I still call the cap bet.

I call the river bet.

When I play these types of players I wait for a good hand and play it very aggressively. Very likely to much so.

Shillx · #4 03-22-2005, 12:44 AM

I would call down and check behind on any street should he check to me.

Just to clarify: This pot is HU and we really can't afford to get into a pissing match with a better hand here. We do need to call him down here because a) our hand might be good and b) we really want to see what he is limp-reraising with. This is not a time where we want to raise ourself out of a pot. We want to goto showdown to see what he has.

Brad

milesdyson · #5 03-22-2005, 01:04 AM

I wholeheartedly agree with calling down.

If this player is sane, there's a very small chance you're going to win this pot, but due to the preflop action, the pot is large enough to make the call down worth it.

Stuey · #6 03-22-2005, 01:13 AM

[ QUOTE ]
This pot is HU and we really can't afford to get into a pissing match with a better hand here. We do need to call him down here because a) our hand might be good and b) we really want to see what he is limp-reraising with. This is not a time where we want to raise ourself out of a pot. We want to goto showdown to see what he has.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't care what he is limp raising with.
I don't want to see him beat me on the turn or river unless I have charged him a high price for it. If I check/call and get beat I tilt. If I bet/raise and get beat I feel better hard to explain but I lose more but feel better about it. If he reraises me I am prepared to take the pissing match all the way to the showdown.

I see why I am wrong. I don't think I can stop. I get into raising wars often vs these types of players. What can I say trying to be honest here.

pointcount · #7 03-22-2005, 11:14 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I would call down and check behind on any street should he check to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Check behind Brad? I agree check call but checking behind makes me feel funny inside [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img] Could you enlighten me as to why?

Shillx · #8 03-22-2005, 08:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would call down and check behind on any street should he check to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Check behind Brad? I agree check call but checking behind makes me feel funny inside [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img] Could you enlighten me as to why?

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay we know a few things about this hand.

1) We may or may not have the best hand on the flop. So let's say that there is a 25% chance of him having aces or kings. If we raise the flop and then he 3-bets, there is now a 75% chance of him having AA/KK. So the only hands that he will be willing to get into a pissing match with have us destroyed. Therefore it is -EV to goto war here. However since we will have the best hand here often, it puts money into our pocket when we call down.

2) After he checks to us, one of 3 things will happen. If he check/raises we just lose more money if we decide to pay off. If we fold to the check/raise we don't get to see what he has. If he check/folds, we don't get to see what he has either. He knows that we have a good hand but we know very little about his. If we see that he has something like T9 in this spot, we can make much better decisions against him in the future. The best thing that we can hope for is a check/call but it is pretty strange for someone to limp-reraise preflop and then get passive after the flop. So by either checking or calling we:

a) encourage him to bluff if that he what he is doing
b) lose less if he has us beat
c) get to a showdown where we gain lots of information about his hand

You also have to understand that when we check behind, we are not giving him a free card. Since we don't know if we have the best hand or not, we have less corncerns about giving free cards (he could be checking intending to trap us with a monster hand). Also consider that he might be drawing stone cold dead after the turn and we want him to toss in those desperation bluff attempts.

Brad

cmwck · #9 03-22-2005, 01:02 AM

If he'll play this way preflop with AA, KK, JJ, AK, or AQs, then there's 17 ways for you to be ahead and 18 ways for him to be ahead on this flop. Add in the 1 or 2 percent of the time you both have QQ and you are ahead or tied 50% of the time on this flop. Raising and calling are close, but my first instinct would probably be to raise. But calling down is fine too.

Fishlips_Jones · #10 03-22-2005, 01:43 AM

I've been seeing this limp-reraise thing more frequently of late; about 6 times in the last couple of weeks. So far, everytime the player has turned over pocket aces. I think most players will only be doing this with AA, AKs or KK (in that order).

I think you're beat preflop, but the King seals it for me. I do want to see his cards though.

Fishlips