OK, so how do you really make money? Off on a tangent.

[Bob T.]

Just some musings.

Earlier this evening, I played on a couple of 5-10 tables on UB. The pot sizes, and average players seeing the flop were in the ranges where I thought that I could make some money, 6-7 BBs, and low 30%.

On both tables, there were 8 players that had statistics that weren't different from those that you would expect to see from winning players, and 2 that were slightly, but not grossly out of line.

I played a little bit over an hour, and had a small win, which was actually almost on my longterm average for 5-10.

I wasn't able to ever isolate any of the weaker opponents.

I got isolated alot. It felt like every time I raised, someone came in for threebet behind me.

There wasn't any coldcalling behind me either.

I lost top pair, and also middle set to runner runner flushes.

How did I end up with a win?

I made one thin value raise on the river, when I made top pair on the river, my kicker was better than my opponents.

I flopped the nut flush when I played K8s in the SB, and got too much action from my opponent who had limped with AKo.

I got a free card and made the nut flush on the river against the BB who had flopped top pair, and paid off my river raise.

I got excess action when I flopped top set versus my opponents TPTK, going multiple bets on every street except the river.

On all of those hands, I thought that my opponents made mistakes postflop that cost them at least one Big Bet.

All of the players who made those mistakes were players that saw between 15% and 25% of the flops, and raised preflop between 6% and 12% of the time, with the limited sample sizes that you get on your opponents, you might believe that they are winning players, and they might be.

But even players that play well preflop frequently make a lot of mistakes postflop, and you might be able to win money from them.

I played almost a year and a half without using tracking software, and played by watching what kind of mistakes my opponents were making, and then tried to get them into those same situations again. I've started to use pokertracker lately, and I think that it is a great tool, especially for uncovering players with preflop weaknesses, but those players show up pretty easily if you are watching your game.

I suspect that as time goes on, and as we move up in limits, your opponents preflop play is going to get better and better, and the only way to separate yourself from them will be by how well you handle yourself postflop.

One of the reasons that NPA Ed Miller's book is going to be so valueable, is that he does a great job of describing the variables that you need to pay attention to postflop. I also think that even though it has been characterized as weak-tight, the Brier-Ciaffone book is going to become more and more important for players to read as the whole poker community becomes more sophisticated.

Good luck,
play well,

Bob T.

[Barry]

Great post and some great observations, but you still need to work on your table selection. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

[Bob T.]

Great post and some great observations, but you still need to work on your table selection.

Just got a refer-a-friend bonus on UB, and I am working that off.

[bisonbison]

Good post, Bob.

[BigEndian]

Very lucid post Bob. I've taken up the challenge of improving my post flop play. I even play a little wilder before the flop in a lot of regards. Also, something I think that's over-looked is that as you sit with players that are closer to your skill level, the swings play a larger impact.

- Jim

[MAxx]

I agree, good post. I have seen you write before about watching your opponents to see what types of mistakes they make and then try to exploit them. I am impressed by that, b/c I don't really remember what kind of mistake player x tends to make. I just generally rember that player x sux, so most of the time I feel that my decisions will be better but I am not really alert to specifically which type of mistake I am looking to exploit from player x. Maybe that is the next level for me (among many other areas). But it sounds like something you really have to actively work on, I don't think you would pick up on this naturally- more like you need to train yourself to focus on this. Do you take lots of notes, or do you just do this everytime you sit down at the table and use it while you are there? I do remember people who make pf errors, but I agree that that is much easier to do without putting much effort into it.

[sfer]

This is a fantastic post, one that should be bumped regularly for new posters.

[Bob T.]

I just generally rember that player x sux, so most of the time I feel that my decisions will be better but I am not really alert to specifically which type of mistake I am looking to exploit from player x. Maybe that is the next level for me (among many other areas). But it sounds like something you really have to actively work on, I don't think you would pick up on this naturally- more like you need to train yourself to focus on this.

Find a translation and read 'The Book of Five Rings' by Miyaomoto Musashi, and maybe also 'The Art of War' by Sun Tsu. They are both strategy books which have simple and direct applications to just about any game that you might play.

Do you take lots of notes, or do you just do this everytime you sit down at the table and use it while you are there?

Yes, I like notes.

When I first started playing, I used pokerstat on Paradise Poker. One of the advantages of tracking software, is that you can take a comprehensive look at a player offline, and think about their style of play, and then think about what style of play might be effective against them. Then when you come up against a similar style player, as soon as you recognize them, you are prepared to play against them. The reason that I stopped using the tracking software, was that I usually recognized my opponents style before my software had collected enough data to confirm it for me.

Lately, I've been trying to learn the shorthanded game, so I decided that having a good record of my play would be very useful, so I decided to start using pokertracker. I've also moved from playing two tables to playing as many as four, so it is harder to pay attention to that many players, and the tracking software helps point out players that might need special attention.

Good luck,
play well,

Bob T.

[Bob T.]

I've taken up the challenge of improving my post flop play. I even play a little wilder before the flop in a lot of regards.

That's right. The better you play postflop, the more you can play preflop. Which actually makes the game more fun, too. Contrary to popular belief, mucking isn't that much fun [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img].

[nepenthe]

Despite the plethora of books covering the basic strategy of preflop play, too many players are still entirely focused on same at the cost of postflop improvement. This is a very good post and should be heeded by new and experienced players alike.