I've been Thinking

[MaxPower]

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Pusuit of Freedom - Defined by the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. Life, Liberty, Pursuit of Happiness. Happiness being defined by the individual and the pursuit thereof give equal protection provided it does not infringe on the rights of others to pursue their brand of happiness.

Is that sufficient nonsense?

Now, I can understand your point about the dangerous road. I agree it is a dangerous road. I can see why someone would be loathe to travel that road, knowing that human history is litered with corpses created by those who have. But, this may be a necessary road, one that is forced on us.

The danger is that if we do not take it, we may be incapable of action in the face of a threat to our very existance.

X

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If I wanted to find out what defines a human being, I might ask a biologist. I don't think think the yearning for freedom will the differentiating feature of our species. I think the onus is on you to prove that it is. There seems to be many examples in our own culture of people who are very willing to curb their own freedom in order to be safer or to satisfy some religious goal.

Here is one example of where I think you are going wrong. There are Asian cultures where collective goals take precedence over individual goals. Surely individual freedoms are often given up when collective goals are pursued. Since individual freedom isn't their primary desire, would you say that the Japanese are sub-human?

If you were fighting a war against them, it would be conveinent for us to lie to ourselves and consider them sub-human. That makes it a lot easier to kill them.

When you try to define what it means to be human, you come up with an answer that proves that you embody the human spirit and that Muslims are sub-human. What a suprise! Its good thing you didn't come up with something that proved that you were the sub-human. I have reason to be skeptical of any belief system that proves that we are superior, especially when we come up with that belief system ourselves.

You can't possibly be objective when trying to answer this question. Since you haven't lived in every culture, you can't possibly understand the universal desires of human beings.

You have come up with a very self-serving belief system, that very conveniently justifies any actions we might take against muslims.

I am all in favor of killing and defeating anyone who would bring harm to the US or threaten our security, but I don't have to presume that I am superior to justify it. My justification is this - it is us or them, I want us to win out of pure self interest. Even if I presumed that my enemy is morally superior to me, I still want to be the winner.

[jcx]

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So-called "fundamental" Islam is spreading, and more moderate (or less fanatical) Muslims are often unwilling to speak up against it, in part due to fear of repercussions. Moreover, the fanatical or fundamentalist elements have the literal text of the Koran on their side.........
..........Very tricky and dangerous times ahead.

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What happens when we substitute 'Christian' for "Islam" and 'Bible' for 'Koran'?


Yes, indeed......Very tricky and dangerous times.....right now.

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Care to back that up? Please provide several recent examples of where fundamentalist Christians have bombed random targets, engaged in the slaughter of the innocent all the while shouting "Yahweh is great!" and I'll consider your opinion.

[Exsubmariner]

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If I wanted to find out what defines a human being, I might ask a biologist

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Change the word being to animal and we are in complete agreement.


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There are Asian cultures where collective goals take precedence over individual goals

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Sounds like the communist Chinese to me.

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Since individual freedom isn't their primary desire, would you say that the Japanese are sub-human?



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Such things have been uttered in the past by people I have met, but not by me.

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If you were fighting a war against them

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We did.

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consider them sub-human

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And we did.

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That makes it a lot easier to kill them.


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And it did. Nuke those fuckers. Twice.

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When you try to define what it means to be human, you come up with an answer that proves that you embody the human spirit and that Muslims are sub-human. What a suprise! Its good thing you didn't come up with something that proved that you were the sub-human. I have reason to be skeptical of any belief system that proves that we are superior, especially when we come up with that belief system ourselves.

You can't possibly be objective when trying to answer this question. Since you haven't lived in every culture, you can't possibly understand the universal desires of human beings.

You have come up with a very self-serving belief system, that very conveniently justifies any actions we might take against muslims.


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Of course I have come up with a belief system that is self serving. I never had any other intent in my exercise. Please see my reponse to Jdanz above for further explaination. I also have been objective. See the historical evidence I presented in the Jdanz reply, as well. It is very very convienient that I find history to be on my side. You must be delusional to think otherwise.


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I am all in favor of killing and defeating anyone who would bring harm to the US or threaten our security, but I don't have to presume that I am superior to justify it. My justification is this - it is us or them, I want us to win out of pure self interest. Even if I presumed that my enemy is morally superior to me, I still want to be the winner.



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You and I are actaully very close in our thinking. On reflection, I discovered the motivation behind having this thought exercise was in fact to come up with an ideaological rational to view extremist Muslims on the same basis as they view me. Understand you and I would be beheaded if any member of Al Queada had the opportunity. They have their ideaological rational for doing any atrocity that serves their purpose. It is only fair the west has one as well. There are people in the world who need that in order to wage a war and kill an enemy. They are not so clear about the interests of self preservation as you or I might be.

Best Regards,
X

[Exsubmariner]

I hope you're not suffering from ePenis envy. [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[Myrtle]

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[ QUOTE ]
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So-called "fundamental" Islam is spreading, and more moderate (or less fanatical) Muslims are often unwilling to speak up against it, in part due to fear of repercussions. Moreover, the fanatical or fundamentalist elements have the literal text of the Koran on their side.........
..........Very tricky and dangerous times ahead.

[/ QUOTE ]

What happens when we substitute 'Christian' for "Islam" and 'Bible' for 'Koran'?


Yes, indeed......Very tricky and dangerous times.....right now.

[/ QUOTE ]

Care to back that up? Please provide several recent examples of where fundamentalist Christians have bombed random targets, engaged in the slaughter of the innocent all the while shouting "Yahweh is great!" and I'll consider your opinion.

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Fair enough.....Please consider the following if you would.

.....So-called ‘fundamental’ Christianity is spreading, and more moderate (or less fanatical) Christians are often unwilling to speak up against it, in part due to fear of repercussions.......

What I’m attempting to address is the similarity of the dynamics between the growth of ‘fundamentalism’ in both sects, the major component of which (in both cases, IMO) is the virtual black/white POV of their doctrines......where the fanatical or fundamental elements believe that they have the literal text of the Bible on their side, and use that belief as justification for whatever action they feel is necessary to hold sway.

I don’t know how anyone could possibly disagree that there has not been a surge in the growth of fundamental Christianity in the US over the past 2 decades?

As far as examples? Abortion clinic bombings and the murder of doctors and others who work there.

The ideology of the extremists of both sects is essentially the same, and that is what I’m focusing on.

They both tread on the same slippery slope..........

[MMMMMM]

Hi Myrtle,

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So-called "fundamental" Islam is spreading, and more moderate (or less fanatical) Muslims are often unwilling to speak up against it, in part due to fear of repercussions. Moreover, the fanatical or fundamentalist elements have the literal text of the Koran on their side.........
..........Very tricky and dangerous times ahead.

[/ QUOTE ]



What happens when we substitute 'Christian' for "Islam" and 'Bible' for 'Koran'?


Yes, indeed......Very tricky and dangerous times.....right now.

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When jcx asked for examples, you responded:

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What I’m attempting to address is the similarity of the dynamics between the growth of ‘fundamentalism’ in both sects, the major component of which (in both cases, IMO) is the virtual black/white POV of their doctrines......where the fanatical or fundamental elements believe that they have the literal text of the Bible on their side, and use that belief as justification for whatever action they feel is necessary to hold sway.

I don’t know how anyone could possibly disagree that there has not been a surge in the growth of fundamental Christianity in the US over the past 2 decades?

As far as examples? Abortion clinic bombings and the murder of doctors and others who work there.

The ideology of the extremists of both sects is essentially the same, and that is what I’m focusing on.

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You seem to be responding in too general a manner to really be addressing my point. My point was that the Islamic terrorists can point to specific Koranic verses to justify their killings of innocents, and that these verses give much support to the views of radical Muslims and radical Islamic preachers.

Abortion clinic fanatical murderers don't point to specific Biblical verses to justify their killings, to my knowledge.

The two ideologies are not essentially the same ideology, nor are the respective religious texts essentially similar.

Islamic fanatics have a wealth of Koranic verses which specifically support their violent acts and radical positions, and indeed a great many imams use them for exactly this purpose.

Islamic terrorists and radical imams point to many very specific Koran verses instructing them to make war upon the nonbelievers, to fight them until Islam rules over the entire Earth, etc.

Which religious verses can or do the abortion clinic fanatics point to, which Biblical verses literally support their acts of murder? Can you quote any such verses?


Here are some verses from the Koran:


"Mohammed is Allah's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another." (Sura 48.29)

"Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites, and deal harshly with them. Hell shall be their home: an evil fate." (Sura 9.73)

"Allah revealed His will to the angels, saying: 'I shall be with you. Give courage to the believers. I shall cast terror into the hearts of the infidels. Strike off their heads, strike off the very tips of their fingers!' That was because they defied Allah and His apostle. He that defies Allah and his apostle shall be sternly punished by Allah." (Sura 8.12-13)

"Muster against them [i.e. non-Muslims] all the men and cavalry at your command, so that you may strike terror into the enemy of Allah and your enemy, and others besides them who are unknown to you but known to Allah." (Sura 8.60)

"And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is all for Allah." (8:39)

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." (9:29)


As you can see, the above verses specifically instruct believers to make war upon and subdue the nonbelievers. I don't think these verses have Biblical equivalents to be found anywhere; and most definitely do not have Biblical equivalents in the New Testament, which conveys the teachings and example of Jesus, thereby providing the essence of Christianity.

Abortion clinic murderers may argue as follows: The abortion clinic doctors are murdering innocent babies, so killing those doctors is an act of protecting innocent life. However, they don't point to specific verses from Christianity directly instructing them to go out and kill whosoever takes innocent life.

Also, there aren't verses in the Bible instructing Christians to go out and make war upon and subdue all non-Christians.

Islamic terrorists on the other hand have a plethora of verses instructing them to make war upon non-Muslims--and also to commit other cruel acts against them, such as: to strike terror into their hearts, to cut off their fingertips, etc.

As I previously posted, the struggle between radical Islamists and moderate Muslims has been favoring the side of the Islamists, whose numbers are growing. Part of the problem that moderate Muslims have is that the radical Islamists have myriad Koranic verses to back up their positions. Islam itself is not moderate. And radical Islamists are even attacking and killing moderate Muslims, viewing them as heretics. It would be nice if their positions could be shown to be false or unsupported by the Koran, but such is not the case.

[DVaut1]

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Abortion clinic fanatical murderers don't point to specific Biblical verses to justify their killings, to my knowledge.

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http://www.armyofgod.com/Paulhillindex.html

"<font color="blue">Genesis 9:6
Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed:
for in the image of God made he man.

Numbers 35:33 So ye shall not pollute the land wherein ye are:
for blood it defileth the land: and the land cannot be cleansed of the
blood that is shed therein, but by the blood of him that shed it.</font> "


Just what I could find in 30 seconds.

[MMMMMM]

Those verses, DVaut1, do not specifically instruct people to go out to kill or make war.

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"Genesis 9:6
Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed:
for in the image of God made he man.

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That verse and the phrase,

"He who lives by the sword, dies by the sword"--can be taken as general observations with indeed some truth to them. They don't necessarily mean go out and kill. Paul Hill is deluded, or cannot read critically enough, if he claims these verses represent definitive Biblical basis for his actions.

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Numbers 35:33 So ye shall not pollute the land wherein ye are:
for blood it defileth the land: and the land cannot be cleansed of the
blood that is shed therein, but by the blood of him that shed it."

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Similar comment: that verse does not instruct followers to go out and kill.

Also, please note that the quotes are from the Old Testament, which is not the basis (although it is the background) of Christianity.

Some of the verses from the Koran, however, DO specifically instruct followers to go out and kill--for instance the verses instructing Muslims to slay idolaters.

"When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. - 9:5"

Also, there are many verses instructing Muslims to attack and fight non-believers:

"O Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites. Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey's end. - 9:73

Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal sternly with them. Hell shall be their home, evil their fate. - 66:9

When you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks, then when you have made wide slaughter among them, tie fast the bonds, then set them free, either by grace or ransom, until the war lays down its burdens. - 47:4

Allah will humble the unbelievers. Allah and His apostle are free from obligations to idol-worshipers. Proclaim a woeful punishment to the unbelievers. - 9:2-3

But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever you find them. - 4:89

Fight them so that Allah may punish them at your hands, and put them to shame. (verse cited in Newsweek 2/11/02)"

[MaxPower]

What you are saying is that your reasons for declaring Muslims sub-human are BS, but that is OK because it rationalizations all actions that we want to take. You seem to think that since Islamic fundamentalists have some twisted belief system that classifies us as sub-human infidels, that we need to sink to their level and have our own twisted belief system.

We don't agree at all.

As far as your objectivity goes, you have none. Your point that free societies create more progress is supported by history, but it has nothing to do with whether or not those who live in non-free socieities are human beings.

I don't approve of any ideology whose sole purpose it to make us feel good about ourselves and justify all of our actions. I don't want to compare you to any historical figures, but I fear before long you will prospose the final solution.

[DVaut1]

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However, they don't point to specific verses from Christianity directly instructing them to go out and kill whosoever takes innocent life.

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http://www.armyofgod.com/PHill_ShortShot.html

" <font color="blue">When I went from mentally debating whether to act, in general, to planning a particular act, I felt some relief. Romans 14:23b says"... and whatever is not from faith is sin." If I had not acted when I did, it would have been a direct and unconscionable sin of disobedience. One of the first things I told my wife, after the shooting was, "I didn't have any choice!" That cry came from the depths of my soul. I was certain, and still am, that God called me to obey His revealed will at that particular time.

My plan was to carry my shotgun from my parked truck to the front of the abortion clinic in a rolled-up poster board protest sign. I would leave the concealed shotgun lying on the ground until the abortionist drove past me into the clinic parking lot.</font>"

Is the book of Romans not part of the New Testament now?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Jennings_Hill

" <font color="blue"> In a statement before his execution, Rev. Hill said that he felt no remorse for his actions, and that he expected "a great reward in Heaven. </font> "

Where have I heard something similar to this before? Replace 'reward' with 'virgins' and Myrtle's point should start to become clearer.