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  #1  
Old 12-29-2005, 08:04 PM
Eeegah Eeegah is offline
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Location: Raising 99 and flopping quads
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Default This hand is boring

but it is fairly common, at least at passive tables. My first hand here so no reads.

PokerStars 0.10/0.20 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP2 calls, CO calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (5 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG checks, MP2 checks, CO checks.

Turn: (2.50 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG checks, MP2 checks, CO checks.

River: (2.50 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, CO folds, SB folds, Hero...

I might beat him here. He certainly has me outkicked or at least tied if he has any sort of decent preflop range, and for all I know he could be slowplaying a flush like a dork. Whaddya think guys, this worth a 3.5:1 shot? Anyone bet/fold instead?
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  #2  
Old 12-29-2005, 08:08 PM
Vote4Pedro Vote4Pedro is offline
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Default Re: This hand is boring

Bet the river...I see a lot of calls from A-high in these situations
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  #3  
Old 12-29-2005, 08:09 PM
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Default Re: This hand is boring

I'd say make the call. He could very well be betting just because he thinks everyone will fold. He likely has nothing at all, or maybe an ace high. Let's see what other people think...
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  #4  
Old 12-29-2005, 08:10 PM
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Default Re: This hand is boring

Oh... I didn't realize you had checked before him. In that case I would have bet first.
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  #5  
Old 12-29-2005, 08:14 PM
DavidC DavidC is offline
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Default Re: This hand is boring

I agree with what hte other guys have said. Check-call vs lags, bet vs passives, or check-fold, depending on their calling range.

The real question is if this is a bet-fold or a check-fold. It's certainly not a check-call.

--Dave.
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  #6  
Old 12-29-2005, 08:25 PM
Redd Redd is offline
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Default Re: This hand is boring

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with what hte other guys have said. Check-call vs lags, bet vs passives, or check-fold, depending on their calling range.

The real question is if this is a bet-fold or a check-fold. It's certainly not a check-call.

--Dave.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's certainly not a check-fold either. We have the best hand here easily &gt;30% of the time.
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  #7  
Old 12-29-2005, 09:01 PM
DavidC DavidC is offline
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Default Re: This hand is boring

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I agree with what hte other guys have said. Check-call vs lags, bet vs passives, or check-fold, depending on their calling range.

The real question is if this is a bet-fold or a check-fold. It's certainly not a check-call.

--Dave.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's certainly not a check-fold either. We have the best hand here easily &gt;30% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know what I'm talking about Redd.

Edit:

I haven't written the formula for what you should be doing here, but here's the basics:

KC if they'll bet more than they'll call, and they'll bet with hands that they would fold. This is particularly good if they will bluffraise you and make you fold the winner.

KF if they'll fold more hands than they'll call, and they'll only bet if they're ahead. Unless they'll call you with hands that they would have bet, in which case the combinations of getting those calls and seeing a showdown may make betting more attractive again.

BF if they won't bluffraise you often enough to justify calling, and they'll call with hands that they would check. This isn't entirely true... you want them to call quite a bit more often than you would initially think and bluff much less.

BC if they're so incredibly aggressive that they'll raise no matter what, and you're ahead of lots of their hands. This basically gets an extra bet from a lag.

Anyways, I'm not sure what we should do in this particular hand, as I haven't been playing much lately, but this is how you should think about it.

--Dave.
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  #8  
Old 12-29-2005, 09:33 PM
Redd Redd is offline
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Posts: 44
Default Re: This hand is boring

[ QUOTE ]
KF if they'll fold more hands than they'll call, and they'll only bet if they're ahead.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really challenge the second axiom here; I think that a wide range of hands are betting after seeing the past two streets get checked through, and all queens are heavily discounted for not seeing any previous action from them on the flop or turn. A better T is a possibility here, but IMO not good enough to justify a river fold.

I'm a little confused by axiom 1; it seems like a simplification to me. Shouldn't they need to call with losing hands less often than calling with winning hands to justify the check, assuming that axiom 2 is true?

edit: I see what you mean in the first axiom when taken in context with this:
[ QUOTE ]
Unless they'll call you with hands that they would have bet, in which case the combinations of getting those calls and seeing a showdown may make betting more attractive again.

[/ QUOTE ]
but I'd argue this is true almost 100% of the time.
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  #9  
Old 12-29-2005, 09:56 PM
Eeegah Eeegah is offline
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Join Date: May 2005
Location: Raising 99 and flopping quads
Posts: 609
Default Re: This hand is boring

[ QUOTE ]
Anyways, I'm not sure what we should do in this particular hand, as I haven't been playing much lately, but this is how you should think about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well again this was my first hand at the table, but it looked fairly passive.
I actually had given up on the hand by the turn and was just waiting to fold, and didn't see the ten until I checked it through, heh.

A few rounds into it, I realized how passive the table actually was--people regularly limped and called down pocket Queens and Aces because they were bet into on undercard flops (usually by me, grr). About half the talbe had aggression factors under a tenth, and the table PFR was about 2%. I'm fairly sure that some of these folks would have let a queen check through, either through sheer passivity or as a FREAKING AWESOME slowplay.

Anyway, I called and was shown T9o. My 15BB challenge ended quickly today [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]
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