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  #11  
Old 12-28-2005, 02:31 PM
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Default Re: Against a thinking TAG.....

I would have 3-bet the flop instead of the turn.

And check through the river. There is a 4-card str on the board which either scared him into checking or made his hand and is going for the c/r.
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  #12  
Old 12-28-2005, 02:43 PM
Redd Redd is offline
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Default Re: Against a thinking TAG.....

The only hand a thinking TAG should be c/ring the flop with here is a monster IMO.

He should be check-folding lone 7s/pockets (that were too weak to 3-bet pf) on the flop because hero's range is basically a bunch of aces, a few kings, bigger pockets and maybe QJs that has 10-11 outs against him in a small pot.

He should be WA/WBing aces or kings here.

So if he's really decent the only reasonable hands I can see him c/ring for value here are 77, A7s, or a deception-pf-called AK. After his check-raise, I call down on the chance that my read is wrong, possible outs against two-pair, or a trickey bluff.
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  #13  
Old 12-28-2005, 03:05 PM
Vote4Pedro Vote4Pedro is offline
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Default Re: Against a thinking TAG.....

If you aren't 3betting the flop, you should raise the turn, so I like it. I don't think the river changes anything, so fire away.
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  #14  
Old 12-28-2005, 03:42 PM
Watain Watain is offline
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Default Re: Against a thinking TAG.....

Since you raised in middle position you do not signal a blind steal. The fact that the flop is super-scary, he chooses to c/r you and he bets out on the turn, indicates that he is confident of his hand.

Would you have folded to a reraise on the turn? - if not, i think you should have called him down...
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  #15  
Old 12-28-2005, 03:49 PM
BatsShadow BatsShadow is offline
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Default Re: Against a thinking TAG.....

Grunch: My gut says bet/call, but my thinking brain is saying that this really looks like it could be AJ. I'm stumped. Wait, the fact that he's in the BB expands his range enough to make me wanna bet/call.
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  #16  
Old 12-28-2005, 04:06 PM
Shillx Shillx is offline
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Default Re: Against a thinking TAG.....

Would you have folded to a reraise on the turn? - if not, i think you should have called him down...

This is backwards. You should calldown when you would have folded to a 3-bet. It isn't a complex theory, but it would take awhile to detail because it can be applied to so many spots. The cliff notes version is -- don't raise/fold when you have a strong hand and aren't likely to be drawing thin/dead when you are behind. This is the case in the hand that was presented, so we like call-call more then raise-fold.

This is a tough hand. Hmmm have to think about it some more.
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  #17  
Old 12-28-2005, 04:17 PM
Watain Watain is offline
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Default Re: Against a thinking TAG.....

You should calldown when you would have folded to a 3-bet.

Actually, this was what i intented to write. I would prefer call-call. You win the most when in front and looses less when behind.
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  #18  
Old 12-28-2005, 04:19 PM
Shillx Shillx is offline
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Default Re: Against a thinking TAG.....

I have thought about this for literally 30 minutes and I haven't come up with a good reason for him not to play Ax slow. The only problem comes in when it gets to the 3rd level or somewhere far beyond the scope of my thinking abilities. So when the villian says "he will never have an ace here", you pop the check/raise with A3 and he looks foolish when he value calls down with Q9 (knowing that you have 65s or something). I know I've done this and the guy had the damn ace everytime. But until you reach this point, it makes no sense to play an ace fast.

Having said that, most people will play Ax in the manner that the villian played this hand (even better opponents). If you are going to do anything before the river, I would start putting bets in on the flop. If you decide to just smoothcall, I would intend on raising the river. If he has Ax, you get 3 bets no matter if you raise 4th or 5th. If he has a draw, you win 2 bets no matter what street you raise. But if he has nothing, you win that extra bet by waiting. If you are looking to get paid by Ax or Kx, just go ahead and 3-bet the flop.
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  #19  
Old 12-28-2005, 04:29 PM
Redd Redd is offline
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Default Re: Against a thinking TAG.....

Bradx,

[ QUOTE ]
I have thought about this for literally 30 minutes and I haven't come up with a good reason for him not to play Ax slow.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Having said that, most people will play Ax in the manner that the villian played this hand (even better opponents).

[/ QUOTE ]

Aren't these two statements contradictory? If we assume he's playing very well, why wouldn't he choose the best play?

I really don't like analyzing cognizant tag vs. cognizant tag hands because of this sort of 'hall of mirrors' effect where each guy knows what the other guy knows he knows they know. It seems to me that if we're doing anything less than several levels of thought here the thinking tag wouldn't want to raise an ace here.
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  #20  
Old 12-28-2005, 04:40 PM
Eeegah Eeegah is offline
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Default Re: Against a thinking TAG.....

[ QUOTE ]
I really don't like analyzing cognizant tag vs. cognizant tag hands because of this sort of 'hall of mirrors' effect where each guy knows what the other guy knows he knows they know. It seems to me that if we're doing anything less than several levels of thought here

[/ QUOTE ]

I suddenly have the urge to build up a resistance to Iocane powder.
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