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  #31  
Old 11-30-2005, 10:59 PM
imported_luckyme imported_luckyme is offline
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Default Re: Scientology VS Christianity currently tied

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I'd gladly grant a premise of the actual existance of a person named "jesus" around 2000 years ago, who claimed to be the son of god. I've never quite understood why that was important in almost any discussion about xtrianity.

[/ QUOTE ]I am much more certain that L Ron Hubbard existed.

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For sure. I've just never understood why having a video of a guy named jesus ragging on the moneychangers would have any value in settling whether he was a god. Every city has street corners and small cult groups with guys claiming otherworldly powers.
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  #32  
Old 12-01-2005, 08:10 AM
BTirish BTirish is offline
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Default Re: Scientology VS Christianity currently tied

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as it is for the OP to demand an entire apologia for Christianity and a set of criticisms of Scientology in one thread.

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This is an exageration, I was asking for any reasonable distinction, just a glimmer of hope for Christians? None is forthcoming. If these Christians really held their belief rationally I'm sure a quick answer to that question would be easily accesible.

Remember I'm not asking to prove Christianity, just provide some differentiation from Scientololgy, a religion which most Christians seem to think is ridiculous.

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Fair enough. The difficulty is that few Christians are going to know enough about Scientology to make any critical comments. I'm not interested in researching Scientology just to debunk your supposition that "neither is superior until someone has proved otherwise to me." All I know about Scientology I learned from Southpark [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

As for reasons for accepting the truth of Christianity, are you saying that no one on this forum has ever made any argument in its favor? Just because no one is willing to indulge you when you demand a comparison between Christianity and Scientology, about which most Christians probably know next to nothing, doesn't mean that there aren't in fact compelling practical arguments in favor of belief in the Christian revelation, both in comparison to Scientology and absolutely speaking.

Why should you believe the Christian revelation, the essence of which is that if you repent, believe that Christ is the Son of God, and accept Baptism, you will be saved? Because you are a sinner in need of salvation. You have a longing for happiness which is unfulfilled by any natural good, and your own inability to live up to whatever ethical ideals you believe in should prompt you to realize that you are in need of assistance to become the person you know you should. Christianity offers answer to both of these needs: it offers total fulfillment in union with the God who created you for Himself, and it offers the grace to become who you are really meant to be: a child of God.

Any real and substantial reason for believing in Christianity is always offered and received on a personal level. I can no better give you, in an internet forum, a reason compelling to you than I could give a compelling reason to a random person for believing in the theory of relativity--I would have to know what that person already knows and thinks before giving a reason (or a long set of reasons, if the person doesn't know much) is even possible.

So, the reason I gave above is the most general and the most universally true. If it doesn't appeal to you as a compelling reason, it isn't because of a deficiency in the reason itself, but simply because I don't know you--I may be unable to help you to see why it is in fact good for you to become a Christian.
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  #33  
Old 12-01-2005, 08:56 AM
PrayingMantis PrayingMantis is offline
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Default Re: Scientology VS Christianity currently tied

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Why should you believe the Christian revelation, the essence of which is that if you repent, believe that Christ is the Son of God, and accept Baptism, you will be saved? Because you are a sinner in need of salvation. You have a longing for happiness which is unfulfilled by any natural good, and your own inability to live up to whatever ethical ideals you believe in should prompt you to realize that you are in need of assistance to become the person you know you should. Christianity offers answer to both of these needs: it offers total fulfillment in union with the God who created you for Himself, and it offers the grace to become who you are really meant to be: a child of God.

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OK you have now convinced us that you are indeed a christian, and that you do have what you call "reasons" to believe in the god of christianity. Any decent scientologist should be able to make same convincing arguments with regard to scientology (I have actually read "reasons" to belive in scientology which are better than your arbitrary list of "reasons" to believe in christianity).


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So, the reason I gave above is the most general and the most universally true.

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I'm sorry, but it has absolutly nothing to do with "true". Certainly not more than any scientological reasons (or any other possible religion/cult).

Why can't you and others just accept the very simple fact that christianity and scientology are essentially the same? Christianity is a more popular, and older story, but so what? Take 2 musicians. One is more popular and older, the other is not. Well, they are still 2 musicians. The 2nd might be actually better in some important senses. The question of religion is a question of of cultural context, of social arrangements. It has nothing to do with "truth". It is like wearing a certain shirt and saying that it is "true", as opposed to another shirt some other person wears.

You are confused. You have this fantasy world you believe in, with god and jesus and everything, which is fine. But it is not reality. It is a collective image in your mind, like a tv show you're watching along with many others. You might want to wake up from it, you might want to keep dreaming. That's the only 2 options you have.
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  #34  
Old 12-01-2005, 09:32 AM
BTirish BTirish is offline
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Default Re: Scientology VS Christianity currently tied

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So, the reason I gave above is the most general and the most universally true.

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I'm sorry, but it has absolutly nothing to do with "true". Certainly not more than any scientological reasons (or any other possible religion/cult).

Why can't you and others just accept the very simple fact that christianity and scientology are essentially the same? Christianity is a more popular, and older story, but so what? Take 2 musicians. One is more popular and older, the other is not. Well, they are still 2 musicians. The 2nd might be actually better in some important senses. The question of religion is a question of of cultural context, of social arrangements. It has nothing to do with "truth". It is like wearing a certain shirt and saying that it is "true", as opposed to another shirt some other person wears.

You are confused. You have this fantasy world you believe in, with god and jesus and everything, which is fine. But it is not reality. It is a collective image in your mind, like a tv show you're watching along with many others. You might want to wake up from it, you might want to keep dreaming. That's the only 2 options you have.

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By claiming that Christianity is nothing but a fantasy and a story, you are ignoring that Christianity contains specific propositions about the nature of the world and of God that are either true or false. You obviously seem to suppose that they are false.

You suggest that I should "just admit that I believe in this fantasy" and stop thinking it has anything to do with the truth, even though I'm free to continue to believe it. That's a much more ridiculous suggestion than the suggestion that one should believe in a divine revelation. I should "believe" it and also acknowledge that it's all just a bunch of hooey?

By the way, what were those reasons in favor of Scientology that are more appealing to you than the reasons I gave in favor of believing in Christianity? Just curious.
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  #35  
Old 12-01-2005, 09:43 AM
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Default Re: Scientology VS Christianity currently tied

I'd like to clarify my point, because I wasn't trying to debunk Christianity in one quick thread.

I was just trying to show that Christianity and Scientolgy are approximately equally credible. Yet Christians seem to be 100% sure that one is true and the other is silly.

I was trying to get people to question their belief, and to understand how similar these religions look to a rational observer.

It would seem to me that if Christians would expect someone to give time to their reasons for joining a religion on the basis of faith, then they should believe that Scientologists are also rational, and that there is a fair chance that Scientologists are correct.

I know that Christians cannot reconcile these ideas, and I hoped that if I could explain it neatly enough then I might be able to help 1 or 2 brainwashed people have that Eureka moment and begin to question things objectively.
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  #36  
Old 12-01-2005, 09:46 AM
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Default Re: Scientology VS Christianity currently tied

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By the way, what were those reasons in favor of Scientology that are more appealing to you than the reasons I gave in favor of believing in Christianity? Just curious.

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I didn't see any reasons Christianity is believable, I saw a list of alledged benefits in choosing to believe. The problem with that is you would have to believe in the religion to believe that those 'reasons' are meaningful. An objective observer can therefore never reach that point.

EDIT: of course, Scientolgy also contains many claims of how much happier you will be after signing up, again they are nothing more than comparable.
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  #37  
Old 12-01-2005, 10:00 AM
PrayingMantis PrayingMantis is offline
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Default Re: Scientology VS Christianity currently tied

[ QUOTE ]
By claiming that Christianity is nothing but a fantasy and a story, you are ignoring that Christianity contains specific propositions about the nature of the world and of God that are either true or false.

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Christianity's specific propositions about the nature and the world have the same true/false value as any other religion/cult, or any story I have ever read in a book or saw in a film.

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You obviously seem to suppose that they are false.

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Well, as propositions about the nature and the world? If you think they are "true" in the purest sense you are an idiot, no offence. It is all stories you are told. Stories, stories and stories. You BELIEVE they are true, which is fine, as I already said. Children believe the stories they are told are true, it's natural. However, you have absolutely zero evidence in reality to _know_ that that they are indeed true. In that sense, they are not more true than any other religion, cult, or imagined story. It is very simple, actually.


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You suggest that I should "just admit that I believe in this fantasy" and stop thinking it has anything to do with the truth, even though I'm free to continue to believe it. That's a much more ridiculous suggestion than the suggestion that one should believe in a divine revelation. I should "believe" it and also acknowledge that it's all just a bunch of hooey?

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Of course. This is not ridiculous at all. There are some great advantages in believing in a fantasy, or even, believeing in an actual lie, while you know it is a lie, a story, complete fiction.

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By the way, what were those reasons in favor of Scientology that are more appealing to you than the reasons I gave in favor of believing in Christianity? Just curious.

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Well, there are quite a few. I don't care to list them as I don't care to turn this into some kind of a stupid contest between 2 random stories (as others like this to be). But in all seriousness, If you are honestly interested, any thinking behind any religion or cult, ridiculous as you think it is, can offer some very interesting insight and perspective into the nature of human-beings, life, death, personality, mind etc.

Yes, including scientology and christianity.
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  #38  
Old 12-01-2005, 10:32 AM
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Default Re: Scientology VS Christianity currently tied

Hi all,

New to the forum and was all prepared to jump in on a poker thread, but then saw this and had to throw in a few thoughts [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I'd say that Christianity is more valid than Scientology just in a literal sense. In so far as Christianity is based on SOMETHING. There was a guy called Christ floating about, events within the bible follow some sort of loose historically verifiable timeline, refer to real places etc. Certainly we've found out that it misses a fair bit also, but it's still in that regard dramatically different from the doctrine of Scientology, which Hubbard clearly pulled directly out of his ass, for which there is no history or timeline of events we can reference, whatsoever.

The bible also has a bit more credence where it is vague or interpretational or wrong - because it was written in a time where humans thought and wrote in that kind of mythopoeic style. Hubbard didn't have that excuse, he in fact claimed to be a scientist - so he fails his own test. Most of what he wrote is factually and verifiably not only wrong, but lacking in any kind of scientific method.

I really don't think there are that many Christians who believe that Christianity is rationally provable. I don't think religion is about that. It's about emotion and faith - does this resonate with me, does this empower me, is there some real meaning in this, does this balance my life, will it make me a better person? There's a kind of 'truth' in this that the rationale doesn't account for. I'm an agnostic myself, but I have many Christian friends and I don't for one second question their intelligence, or assume that they're in some kind of denial.

I'd also look at what Christianity vs Scientology do. Scientology is a hugely secretive business, it requires massive financial investment to climb up the Scientology ladder. Sure, there is big business within Christianity. But the Christian faith isn't necessarily a business, there's nothing about it being a business in it's doctrine. You can still walk into a church for free, attend a service for free - you're still given the choice to make your own mind up. That makes it hugely different to Scientology, a 'religion' that only became a religion to achieve tax exemption, an organization which jealously controls all information presented to it's members, and uses the hard sell at every opportunity to increase it's bottom line.

Also LRH was an egocentric crook and a general piece of work, Jesus was by all accounts a really nice guy - that has to count for something no?
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  #39  
Old 12-01-2005, 10:56 AM
tolbiny tolbiny is offline
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Default Re: Scientology VS Christianity currently tied

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but I also know that you do realise how silly it is to believe in Scientology

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Why? A bunch of rich influential people are scientologists. Might help my movie career. Its getting to the point where not being a scientologist could be detrimental to your career if you work in hollywood.
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  #40  
Old 12-02-2005, 02:18 PM
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Default Re: Scientology VS Christianity currently tied

I just told myself in another thread I was going to stop debating with non-christians about christianty because it doesn't get anywhere, but I can't help myself from commenting on this topic.

Scientology says that 75,000,000 years ago there were spaceships that looked like modern DC-8s. This is not a credible claim, IMO.

Some versions of Christianty claim that Jesus was the divine, only son of God who sacrificied himself to redeem humanity, and that salvation by the grace of god is possible through faith in Jesus and his sacrifice. While I think this claim is more credible than the one about DC-8s, I still think it is at the non-credible end of the spectrum.

The real purpose of my post is just to mention that (what I think are valid) versions of christianity exist which do not make claims like the one above. I am happy to talk about my understanding of the gospels with anyone who cares to, but I think people are more interested in debating the mainstream interpretation. I just want to make sure we know that not all Christians are biblical literalists.

I think there are verions of Christianty which are much more credible than scientology. However, I have no defense for NotReady's version of Christianty. If anyone is interested in talking about the differences, I am quite happy to. Since most people just care about the mainstream ideas - I just wanted to mention that
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