Some hands, questions, pt stats..Bit of everything

Mr. Sakuraba · #1 10-04-2005, 11:57 PM

Ok first off, Im relativly new to poker. Only been playing seriously for about 3 months or so(i think). Anyway, I followed the guidelines for playing in the .10 -.25 Nl games over at full tilt. Deposited about 450 or so, got it up to about 600.
Since then its been a complete nightmare. I just cant seem to catch a break. Im down to about 300 in my BR now just from 4 or 5 days worth of playing. I play 4 tables of 10-25,I consider myself to be a Conservative player. I try to closly follow the guidelines dan laid out for us all in HoH vol.1 My question is, do downswings last this long without it acually being my fault? I try to play tight and pretty agressive. I win a lot of smaller pots with continuation bets and pf raises, occasionaly taking a hand to showdown. But then i lose all that hard work in one fell swoop. Ill post my pt stats and a few hands from today and if anyone see's something wrong, please point me in the right direction.

Total hands 2,044
Vp$p 16.98
vp$p sb 28.69
folded sb to steal 88.84
att to steal blinds 5.45
won $ wsf%34.81
BB/100 -13.96 (red [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img])

Aggression Factor
PF: 0.38
Flop: 2.18
Turn: 1.66
River: 2.67
Total: With pf included = 0.95 , Without PF = 2.06

Hands in next post

Mr. Sakuraba · #2 10-05-2005, 12:03 AM

Before i post my hands i have a couple more questions.
1. Is it generally more profitable to play full ring or 6-max? Why?
2. If I had the means(Bankroll) to do so, would I learn faster or possibly do better at NL50? Or is it recomended that all novice's like me play the lowest possible limit?

Ok on to the hands..I dont think the converter workks with Full tilt so its gonna hurt your eyes....Sorry
Im obviously Sakuraba39
#1
FullTiltPoker Game #241194068: Table Apple - $0.10/$0.25 - No Limit Hold'em - 21:11:58 ET - 2005/10/04
Seat 1: pkrnutt ($10.65)
Seat 2: buckmastr ($10.45)
Seat 3: wildy ($19.05)
Seat 4: Philbot ($4.75)
Seat 5: DjPuffnStuff ($22.90)
Seat 6: monki3 ($5)
Seat 7: auburnrounder05 ($29.75)
Seat 8: Sakuraba39 ($29.30)
Seat 9: PokerGids ($27.90)
buckmastr posts the small blind of $0.10
wildy posts the big blind of $0.25
monki3 posts $0.25
The button is in seat #1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Sakuraba39 [Ks Kh]
Philbot folds
DjPuffnStuff calls $0.25
monki3 checks
auburnrounder05 folds
Sakuraba39 raises to $1
PokerGids raises to $1.75
pkrnutt folds
buckmastr folds
wildy folds
DjPuffnStuff calls $1.50
monki3 folds
Sakuraba39 calls $0.75
*** FLOP *** [9s 3s Tc]
DjPuffnStuff checks
Sakuraba39 checks
PokerGids bets $5.50
DjPuffnStuff folds
Sakuraba39 raises to $13
PokerGids calls $7.50
*** TURN *** [9s 3s Tc] [Jd]
Sakuraba39 bets $14.55, and is all in
PokerGids calls $13.15, and is all in
Sakuraba39 shows [Ks Kh]
PokerGids shows [Ac Ah]
Uncalled bet of $1.40 returned to Sakuraba39
*** RIVER *** [9s 3s Tc Jd] [5d]
Sakuraba39 shows a pair of Kings
PokerGids shows a pair of Aces
PokerGids wins the pot ($55.25) with a pair of Aces
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $58.15 | Rake $2.90
Board: [9s 3s Tc Jd 5d]
Seat 1: pkrnutt (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 2: buckmastr (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 3: wildy (big blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 4: Philbot didn't bet (folded)
Seat 5: DjPuffnStuff folded on the Flop
Seat 6: monki3 folded before the Flop
Seat 7: auburnrounder05 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 8: Sakuraba39 showed [Ks Kh] and lost with a pair of Kings
Seat 9: PokerGids showed [Ac Ah] and won ($55.25) with a pair of Aces

#2
FullTiltPoker Game #241216508: Table Ann - $0.10/$0.25 - No Limit Hold'em - 21:31:42 ET - 2005/10/04
Seat 1: Ezalbman ($15.35)
Seat 2: wfoster ($22.40)
Seat 3: auburnrounder05 ($18.35)
Seat 4: Dull_spoon ($37.20)
Seat 5: man_hands ($24)
Seat 6: Sakuraba39 ($23.70)
Seat 7: monki3 ($6.90)
Seat 8: VT Goat ($8.95)
Seat 9: LeeroyRocks ($18.35)
wfoster posts the small blind of $0.10
auburnrounder05 posts the big blind of $0.25
The button is in seat #1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Sakuraba39 [Kc Kd]
Dull_spoon folds
man_hands folds
Sakuraba39 raises to $1
monki3 folds
VT Goat calls $1
LeeroyRocks folds
Ezalbman folds
wfoster folds
auburnrounder05 folds
*** FLOP *** [9d 5c Js]
Sakuraba39 bets $1.50
VT Goat calls $1.50
*** TURN *** [9d 5c Js] [Qd]
Sakuraba39 bets $5.35
VT Goat calls $5.35
*** RIVER *** [9d 5c Js Qd] [Qh]
Sakuraba39 bets $2
VT Goat calls $1.10, and is all in
Uncalled bet of $0.90 returned to Sakuraba39
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Sakuraba39 shows [Kc Kd] (two pair, Kings and Queens)
VT Goat shows [Ks Qs] (three of a kind, Queens)
VT Goat wins the pot ($17.35) with three of a kind, Queens
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $18.25 | Rake $0.90
Board: [9d 5c Js Qd Qh]
Seat 1: Ezalbman (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 2: wfoster (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 3: auburnrounder05 (big blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 4: Dull_spoon didn't bet (folded)
Seat 5: man_hands didn't bet (folded)
Seat 6: Sakuraba39 showed [Kc Kd] and lost with two pair, Kings and Queens
Seat 7: monki3 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 8: VT Goat showed [Ks Qs] and won ($17.35) with three of a kind, Queens
Seat 9: LeeroyRocks didn't bet (folded)

And finially #3
FullTiltPoker Game #241313064: Table Ann - $0.10/$0.25 - No Limit Hold'em - 22:50:44 ET - 2005/10/04
Seat 1: jokrs2 ($21.35)
Seat 2: SleptEco ($24.30)
Seat 3: Toonsey ($16.20)
Seat 4: Dull_spoon ($44.55)
Seat 5: ThrustnDutchman ($9.50)
Seat 6: Sakuraba39 ($44.80)
Seat 7: Pernicious_Dude ($18.15)
Seat 8: Boiler131 ($9.70)
Seat 9: threerivers7 ($34.20)
ThrustnDutchman posts the small blind of $0.10
Sakuraba39 posts the big blind of $0.25
The button is in seat #4
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Sakuraba39 [9h 6d]
SleptEco: lucky bich
jokrs2: ty but im not a bich
Pernicious_Dude has 15 seconds left to act
Pernicious_Dude folds
Boiler131 calls $0.25
threerivers7 folds
jokrs2 folds
SleptEco folds
SleptEco: lucky
Toonsey calls $0.25
Dull_spoon calls $0.25
ThrustnDutchman folds
Sakuraba39 checks
*** FLOP *** [9c 8d 7h]
Sakuraba39 has 15 seconds left to act
Sakuraba39 checks
Boiler131 checks
Toonsey bets $0.50
Dull_spoon raises to $3
Sakuraba39 calls $3
Boiler131 folds
Toonsey folds
*** TURN *** [9c 8d 7h] [7s]
Sakuraba39 checks
Dull_spoon checks
*** RIVER *** [9c 8d 7h 7s] [9s]
Sakuraba39 bets $41.55, and is all in
Dull_spoon calls $41.30, and is all in
Uncalled bet of $0.25 returned to Sakuraba39
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Sakuraba39 shows [9h 6d] (a full house, Nines full of Sevens)
Dull_spoon shows [9d 8c] (a full house, Nines full of Eights)
Dull_spoon wins the pot ($87.20) with a full house, Nines full of Eights
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $90.20 | Rake $3
Board: [9c 8d 7h 7s 9s]
Seat 1: jokrs2 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 2: SleptEco didn't bet (folded)
Seat 3: Toonsey folded on the Flop
Seat 4: Dull_spoon (button) showed [9d 8c] and won ($87.20) with a full house, Nines full of Eights
Seat 5: ThrustnDutchman (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 6: Sakuraba39 (big blind) showed [9h 6d] and lost with a full house, Nines full of Sevens
Seat 7: Pernicious_Dude didn't bet (folded)
Seat 8: Boiler131 folded on the Flop
Seat 9: threerivers7 didn't bet (folded)

Like i mentioned earlier, any comments or help is welcome.

FreakDaddy · #3 10-05-2005, 12:08 AM

1) Play less tables - your still new to the game. Focus on your reads and hand reading skills AND how to play against particular 'player types'. You can't do this if you're trying to only play premium hands and continuation bet small pots.
2) Downswings happen, but 1/2 your roll in 4-5 days is probably some bad luck mixed with a good amount of bad play.
3)Focus on learnign how to win BIG pots and don't worry so much about small pots. Learning to build big pots against particular player types is an art in my opinion and takes lots of practice.
4) HOH is for tourneys. A lot of the basic principles apply to cash ring games, but DEFINATELY not all of them.
5) Spend a few weeks ONLY responding to posts on this site stating as specifically as you can how you'd play the hand. Keep your ears open. This is how you'll learn the most.

FreakDaddy · #4 10-05-2005, 12:14 AM

Hand 1, With more than a player in, re-raise pf.
Hand 2, Bet full size on flop. This was just a bad beat. Stupid donk call. It happens at small stakes.
Hand 3, With a bet and raise in front of you fold this flop. Someone could already be made, and you're only going to make the ass end of a straight. Don't look at this is OESD, it's not and I think a lot of beginners fall into that problem. If a T hits, your straight is likely not best. You only have a slight chance if a 5 hits.

Mr. Sakuraba · #5 10-05-2005, 07:44 AM

Thanks for the reply. From what ive seen on these forums hoh principles can be used for nl cash games, just tighten up a bit right? Anyone else have an answer to my questions or an opinion?

PinkSteel · #6 10-05-2005, 08:16 AM

To OP:

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1, With more than a player in, re-raise pf.

[/ QUOTE ]
Amen. Further, note that you have KK and you're OOP to AA. No way you don't lose a pile on this hand; this is sort of a bad beat story. Nevertheless, OOP with a PP, you should be trying to play a smaller pot; I wouldn't checkraise.

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 2, Bet full size on flop. This was just a bad beat. Stupid donk call. It happens at small stakes.

[/ QUOTE ]
Amen. You got rivered. Bad beat.

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 3, With a bet and raise in front of you fold this flop. Someone could already be made, and you're only going to make the ass end of a straight. Don't look at this is OESD, it's not and I think a lot of beginners fall into that problem. If a T hits, your straight is likely not best. You only have a slight chance if a 5 hits.

[/ QUOTE ]
Amen. One card to the ass end is a great way to lose a bunch of money.

Also:

* The book on small stakes cash NL is written here and on mid-high every day. Read read read.

* You must edit and format your hand histories if you want the serious players to weigh in. (Freak knows what he's doing but I just like to foam at the mouth.)

* Your downswing can easily be attributed to variance, and your sample size is way too small. I've had similar downswings.

* DO NOT move up in stakes until you have the proper bankroll, and at $300 you do not have the roll for a $50NL game. You're thinking you can recoup that $300 loss real quick at higher stakes, and that's go-broke thinking. Read the FAQ.

Mr. Sakuraba · #7 10-05-2005, 09:20 AM

I wasnt talking about trying 50nl with my current 300 br. I was talking about reloading and trying it. My thinking was i might not get so many stupid calls PF and get sucked out so much to a hand i totally didnt expect. (Example: Someone calling 4 or 5x pf with like KTs). Btw anyone know a converter that will work with FTP?
Btw, how are my numbers in PT? I dont really know how to interprit the agression factor and vpip numbers. Everything look ok?

Mr. Sakuraba · #8 10-05-2005, 01:45 PM

over 100 views and only 2 people reply? Come on guys, i need some help here

centja1 · #9 10-05-2005, 06:51 PM

I read these forums every day, but don't post here very often. I think I can give you some insight into hand #3, though, as I used to have somewhat of a problem with this back in my more LAGgy days. I also think that this is probably the most instructive of the three hands you posted. There was really nothing you could do in the other two and probably did very little wrong outside of being up against a monster and getting drawn out on.

The problem in this hand is that you drastically overbet the pot and looking at it presents some very interesting concepts about play on the river when in first position. I don't pretend to take credit for these ideas, but Hold Em Poker For Advanced Players and the Theory of Poker both discuss this in detail. While these books apply to limit hold em, i think the concept applies here.

The pot was somewhere in the neighborhood of $8 on the river and you bet $41 with a full house. There's not a hand in this world that is going to call, only getting 5:4, that you beat outright. Your bet is more of a bluff than anything and your hand is certainly worth more than a bluff. You may occasionally get someone with a nine in their hand to fold, but probably not often enough to make up for the times that you're going to lose to a better hand.

when you start off drawing at a hand (on a draw heavy board such as this one) and backdoor another, you may be presented with a situation where nobody has much and your best course of action may be to simply check and try to induce a bluff.

there are only two hands that beat you in this example, so you have to like your chances of at least splitting the pot. However, there are almost no other hands that are going to call a bet unless they have at least the hand that you have. Perhaps someone thinking their 7 was good. A straight or a flush isn't going to pay off a huge bet on a double paired board, no matter how much the action slowed down on fourth street.

Now, you probably won't be able to get away from this hand unless the guy makes a real out of line bet on the end. I'm not saying that if your opponent bet $41 into the $8 pot that you shouldn't call. I AM saying, however, that you should seriously give some thought to laying it down since you're probably not the favorite to have a hand that takes down the entire pot and are probably going to be laying $40 to win $4. Again, all you can outright beat is a bluff. I think there are probably better spots for your money than 10:1 against.

This hand was definitely very difficult look at because you HAD to pay the guy off. But, you probably could have checked and saved a little money on it, assuming he makes a standard value bet on the end.

I personally like harrington's books very much. Vol I probably comes close to applying to ring games since it deals with the early stages of tournaments and not later when the blinds are sky high. But, an overriding goal in a tournament is to sometimes make bets that may not maximize your return on a particular hand, but that may prevent you from losing more than you perhaps should. This approach will have you playing weak-tight in the cash game, which is not the optimal approach.

One piece of advice from his books that is probably worth taking to heart in a cash game is "Always decide what you want your bet to accomplish and pick an amount that best accomplishes that goal".

Out of curiosity, I would like to know what your thinking was when making that last bet. It's a good practice to get into with your hands that you want to review.

Good luck and keep reading, these forums will absolutely make you a better player.

centja1 · #10 10-05-2005, 07:08 PM

just to post an example, i dug this out of my hand histories.....

Absolute Poker Holdem No Limit $0.10/$0.25

Pertinent stacks: Hero($55), MP1($33), MP2($12.50)

Pre-Flop: Hero is UTG+1 with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
UTG (poster) checks, Hero calls, 1 Fold, MP1 raises to $0.75, MP2 calls $0.75, 4 Folds, Hero calls $0.50.

Flop: 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 10[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Hero checks, MP1 bets $1.25, MP2 calls $1.25, Hero calls $1.25

Turn: 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Hero checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks

River: 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Hero checks, MP1 checks, MP2 bets $10.50 (All-in), Hero calls $10.50, MP1 folds