Playing Looser in low limits...WARNING POTENTIONALLY HAZARDOUS CONTENT

[DcifrThs]

a poster asked me to elaborate on playing looser etc.

a few disclaimers:

1) this is mostly covered in M&M&S (hmmm, Miller and Malmuth=M&M, thats sweet) book(s)

2) i am starting this thread for new posters like the one who asked me to elaborate on it.

3) i am starting a thread unaware if one already existed so dont put a Linky in a response.

4) the looser play advocated in this post is POTENTIALLY HAZARDOUS to somebody NOT ABLE TO PLAY POSTFLOP well. so PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE dont go calling 87s UTG when there are a bunch of nuttty agros behind you b/c i said 87s is a monster low limit hand (which it is after 5 or more limpers)

thanks.

Onto the topic:

In low limit games, in general, people don't play their hands hard. they dont look to extract the max or punish limpers etc. sure you get the 80/40/2 guy occasionally (read: absolute maniac), but for the most part, low limit fish play too loosely, and go way to far with all of their holdings.

this frustrates a tight agressive student of poker b/c he/she (hereafter he) gets drawn out on a lot when there are 8 bad players going to the end. so our friendly neighborhood TAG gets AA cracked by J2o on a K53 board when J2o runner runners a J and a 2 for 2 pair. then our FNTAG gets annoyed and either goes on tilt (raises when he should call or fold or calls when he should fold etc..) or he plays suboptimally against the perpetrator. this behavior, needless to say, is bad for our FNTAG's bankroll.

its also frustrating b/c the J2o guy NEVER BET HIS HAND on the river so it was checked to hero who bet and was called by a winning hand. a table of these bad players is hard to play against playing a TAG style (opening tight from EP raiseing big cards (AQo vs. 8 players isn't a lock) knowing the pot wont be contested shorthanded etc. because your probaility of winning the pot isn't very large. but when you do win its a nice sized pot. further, 1 pair will not win often. be it AQ on A53 board, or AA on a K82 board w/ 8 opponents and a two toned board. those are the types of hands our FNTAG seems to love.

but what about our dear low limit profitable hand friend 75s?? she feels neglected. as she should. our FNTAG is not paying her the attention she deserves. after 1 or two EP or MP limpers, AND THE EXPECTATION OF NO MORE THAN 1 RAISE with EVEN 1 RAISE NOT BEING CERTAINT, she is extremely profitable. the reason is simply a result of the above characteristics of the opponents in low limit.

when you have75s you have a good hand IN THAT SPOT because you will:

1) are assured of a multiway pot

2) gain money and can correctly draw given odds

3) will be able to manipulate opponents into giving you free cards

4) be able to get away easily from this hand

5) will collect BIG BETS when you hit and lose SMALL BETS when you miss (usually by raising for a free card or peeling off to hit a gutter getting likely over 10:1)

and this is just one hand.

now lets move on to pairs, if a pot is going to be 8 handed 22 should be played regardless of the # of bets going in preflop. 22 is a monster on a Jh6h2x board, it will earn TONS AND TONS of bets and lose only those put in when it does. thus pairs should be played a lot CHEAPLY.

using the above as a justification to play 22 calling an EP raiser and an MP caller cold is bad poker b/c you are not sure the setting will be correct. you may have to now take 22 4 handed for 4 bets. UGH. that suckies the big schlongy.

instead, you SHOULD play it in ANY position if the game is very loose (at least 5-6 players every flop for RARELY more than 2 bets). you should play it in later positions after 3 or more limpers. AND, you should RAISE 22 after EVERYBODY limps in a 8-10 handed game for value ON THE BUTTON. please to note that my caps words are often actions and conditions. the capsed action is WRONG when the capped condition is not met.

SO thats it.

all you TAGs getting frustrated and feeling like our FNTAG...relax, this game is fun and you get to play many more hands at lower limits. it only gets harder when you have to have my stats in 30/60 and up [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] (for the record my current 30/60 stats are 18/12/2.81. god is that boring [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img])

Again, please dont use this post as an excuse to play loosely and badly. i am assuming the user can PLAY postlfop and play well relative to the competition.

other advice: GET POKERTRACKER (obviously this is for the newbies)

if i think of anything else i'll add it w/ ADDITION in the subject heading. otherwise, happy pokering and in the words of a great older poster (nevalandry )

"may the flop be with you."

Barron

[Mackerel]

Nice post. I would add Axs as a hand that you love to play for one or two bets PF against a bunch of loose callers.

[DcifrThs]

As stated by poster: add Axs to the list of great suited hands to play.

ALSO, another addition is that on the button, there are so few hands that i woudln't play that id toss anywhere else. Q7s, Q6s etc. any suited ace, any suited 3 gapper above 74s, suited connectors down to 54s, and hands as bad as J6s after a bunch of limpers. NOTE: these hands go DOWN IN VALUE with everybody playing K5s Q2s from any position.

Barron

Dcifr-

You bring up something I struggle with a lot in the low limit games - people who call me down with stuff like two pair. I understand they're running scared and see my raises and just think I might have an incredible hand so they don't raise me, but do you have any strategies for coping with the loss of a pot when you're never raised? I'm talking about the flop that comes out J53 rainbow when you raised preflop with AJ s and the guy on the other side of the table calls down his 2p 53 and turns it over.

On a similar vein: Is there any conceivable explanation for someone not raising when he has the absolute nuts? This guy at a $4/$8 game in Oklahoma last night kept on giving me these beats where he had the nuts but wouldn't let me know. Example: I hold K4spades late position, 4 limpers I'm in. Flop comes up QJ6 two spades, he bets, one call, I call and there's a call behind me. Turn is a K, he bets, I raise, he calls. River is the T spades, he bets, I raise of course and he calls, turning over AJ spades for the nut flush + broadway (like it mattered.) The hand put me on tilt for at least half an hour. I saw him do it again later when he held a broadway on the turn and just called down the river when there was no pair or flush on the board. Wtf?

In your example with 22, your raise is primarily to build the pot so people don't get away from hopeless draws, correct? I assume with eight players, your raise is not for value, because even though you hit your set 1/8 of the time, there's a higher set or straight/flush out there at least 10 percent of the time? Also, is there any worry that by raising pf with the low pp you represent a stronger hand, so when your set comes you actually fail to get as many bets because you represented strength early on?

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
Dcifr-

You bring up something I struggle with a lot in the low limit games - people who call me down with stuff like two pair. I understand they're running scared and see my raises and just think I might have an incredible hand so they don't raise me, but do you have any strategies for coping with the loss of a pot when you're never raised? I'm talking about the flop that comes out J53 rainbow when you raised preflop with AJ s and the guy on the other side of the table calls down his 2p 53 and turns it over.

On a similar vein: Is there any conceivable explanation for someone not raising when he has the absolute nuts? This guy at a $4/$8 game in Oklahoma last night kept on giving me these beats where he had the nuts but wouldn't let me know. Example: I hold K4spades late position, 4 limpers I'm in. Flop comes up QJ6 two spades, he bets, one call, I call and there's a call behind me. Turn is a K, he bets, I raise, he calls. River is the T spades, he bets, I raise of course and he calls, turning over AJ spades for the nut flush + broadway (like it mattered.) The hand put me on tilt for at least half an hour. I saw him do it again later when he held a broadway on the turn and just called down the river when there was no pair or flush on the board. Wtf?

[/ QUOTE ]

he doesn't understand poker.

the 22 raise IS for value AND to hopefully get to see a 4 card flop if it comes AK5

Barron

Yeah it's kind of annoying when this happens, but when you think about it their saving you $$$ by underplaying their hands. You can't fold either hand you describe even if they do raise, so this just adds to your BB/100.

[shant]

Both situations you wrote about are things you should be happy that your opponent does.

Shant, I know I SHOULD be happy, and I know he's losing money he could win off me. My question wasn't "This is good by him, right?" it was WHY would someone do this, and does anyone have strategies to deal with the trauma when you expect to take in an extra $150 that hand? (Cigarette?)

I guess it's like someone breaking into your car and failing to steal your pimped up stereo. It's like the thief is insulting your sense of style.

Oh. So you build the pot big enough not only to help other people's helpless draws, but to allow you to take a free/low cost turn card for the straight draw or set when you miss the flop? That makes sense.