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#11
10-31-2004, 02:57 AM
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Re: Interesting hand with AK
[ QUOTE ]
Alright, you are wrong here. You are losing money by not three-betting this pre-flop. [/ QUOTE ] While it's true that I likely have the best hand preflop, I'm out of position here. 2/3 times you'll miss the flop with AK, and I'm out of position. Even if I'm best on the flop (without improving), it can be very difficult to play this hand with 3 other people in the pot. On the other hand, if I keep the pot small, it's easier for me to get away from it if the flop misses me. Thus, I may lose bets preflop, but I might gain them later by making fewer (or less serious mistakes). It is clearly not optimal, but not terrible either. In this case, it ended up saving me a bet since I would have folded on the flop in either situation. Many experts would agree with me here. For instance, Matthew Hilger recomends just calling in this situation in his Internet Texas Hold 'em book. 
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#12
10-31-2004, 03:03 AM
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Re: Interesting hand with AK
I think you have a lot of re-thinking to do.
[ QUOTE ] 1. I folded for a couple reasons. My bet was intended to get the preflop raiser to raise me. When he did that, I assumed he had a large pair or a big ace (probably a big ace). Because of my bet, I assumed that MP3 would guess that one of us had at least a big ace and not reraise unless he though he could beat that. Therefore, his possiblities were either Ax, 77, or 88. I figured Ax to be the least likely since I was also putting UTG on a big ace, leaving only one left in the deck. Plus, it makes (slightly) more sense to cold call a raise preflop with a medium pair than Ax. There fore, I assumed he had a set and I would be drawing almost dead. Furthermore, there was a chance UTG also had AK, so I could be drawing to a split pot. [/ QUOTE ] You must realize that many online players call with any Ace. The chances that your TPTK is good are very high. Also, if you had 3-bet preflop, you would have a much clearer picture as to where you stood at this point in the hand. As for where you were, getting 7-to-1 with TPTK would be good enough for me to cap, but I suppose you could justify just calling. [ QUOTE ] 2. I was kicking myself when the turn got checked through. [/ QUOTE ] No kidding. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] [ QUOTE ] 3. My biggest mistake was probably giving MP3 too much credit for being a good player. My arguement for folding entailed that he think his hand through before reraising with top pair medium kicker. [/ QUOTE ] Actually, I would have 3-bet AJ there myself - of course, I would not have coldcalled like he did, but if I did, I wouldn't then fold an A-high flop like this. UTG could easily be raising KK here, hoping to get a cheaper showdown against what might be a weak ace in front of him. BB (you) could have any number of hands - certainly wouldn't put you on AK because you showed no pre-flop aggression. [ QUOTE ] 4. Reraising preflop here would have just ended up costing me more money. Even if UTG caps, MP3 would likely call since he called the first raise cold. He might have been more likely to fold the turn, but he clearly wasn't thinking about what we had so he would have reraise, and I would have been forced to fold on the flop for the same reasons as above. Calling down would have cost me 3 BB and my hand isn't strong enough to bet aggressively from this position. [/ QUOTE ] How do you figure that reraising preflop would have cost you more? You cannot assume the flop action would have looked even remotely similar if you had taken that line. And even if it had, you would have still been wrong to fold before the turn. And I would say that MP3 was thinking quite a bit about what you had. Like I said above, I would not have put you on a better Ace than AJ. And that leaves UTG, who either has a slightly better Ace, or a large pocket pair. Either way, a 3-bet on the flop sorts all of this out and makes the hand much easier to play from there. The fact that he checked behind on the turn, ostensibly looking for a cheap showdown, shows that he was concerned that his Ace was outkicked. The fact is that you gave away a pot that should have been yours.
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#13
10-31-2004, 03:21 AM
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Re: Interesting hand with AK
[ QUOTE ]
While it's true that I likely have the best hand preflop, I'm out of position here. 2/3 times you'll miss the flop with AK, and I'm out of position. Even if I'm best on the flop (without improving), it can be very difficult to play this hand with 3 other people in the pot. [/ QUOTE ] This is why you should 3-bet. First, you likely have the best hand, so you're betting for value. Second, you're representing a big pair, with which you can bet almost any flop and get opponents who missed (and even some who hit the flop) to fold when they're drawing live (or ahead). Third, if it's capped by UTG, you have more information to work with as the hand proceeds. [ QUOTE ] On the other hand, if I keep the pot small, it's easier for me to get away from it if the flop misses me. Thus, I may lose bets preflop, but I might gain them later by making fewer (or less serious mistakes). [/ QUOTE ] First of all, if the primary thought you have when holding AK in the BB is allowing yourself to get away cheaply, then you might as well fold and take up knitting. Second, here, you hit the flop in best way possible (TPTK, no other paint that makes two-pair likely for UTG, and no flush draw). This is not a time to be saving bets. There are already 7 BB in this pot, and you are giving up a vary fair chance (at the least) to collect them and more, so that you can save 3 or 4. [ QUOTE ] It is clearly not optimal, but not terrible either. In this case, it ended up saving me a bet since I would have folded on the flop in either situation. [/ QUOTE ] [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]How do you know you would have folded the flop in either situation? Certainly you can't predict that the flop action would have looked the same had you 3-bet preflop. Even if it was, folding would be very bad here. [ QUOTE ] Many experts would agree with me here. For instance, Matthew Hilger recomends just calling in this situation in his Internet Texas Hold 'em book. [/ QUOTE ] No disrespect to Mr. Hilger, but take care in who you classify as an expert. And even when you've identified one, be sure to interpret his or her advice carefully, lest you misapply it to your own detriment. If you haven't read SSH yet, I think now would be a good time.
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#14
10-31-2004, 03:47 AM
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Re: Interesting hand with AK
"While it's true that I likely have the best hand preflop, I'm out of position here. 2/3 times you'll miss the flop with AK, and I'm out of position. Even if I'm best on the flop (without improving), it can be very difficult to play this hand with 3 other people in the pot."
These are not compelling reasons not to raise. The best reason is the ability to bet into the preflop raiser when you completely miss, IMO. I would threebet here, but just calling isn't a crime. -Michael
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#15
10-31-2004, 05:31 AM
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Re: Interesting hand with AK
Thanks. You're reply makes the most sense of any I've gotten. One thing I've noticed about Hilger's starting hand recommendations is that many of them tend to be too passive. I agree with all the things you said which is why I usually raise in this situation, it just happened that in this case I didn't.
I haven't read SSH yet. I've read Hilger's book, Lee Jones's book, and Sklansky's Hold 'em Poker. I'll probably read it eventually, but I haven't yet because I'm not sure that it will offer any more insight than the other books. If someone would be so kind, I would be interested to know what types of things I might learn from this book that aren't already covered in the other books.
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#16
10-31-2004, 05:50 AM
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Re: Interesting hand with AK
SSH is worth every penny. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
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#18
10-31-2004, 05:53 AM
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Re: Interesting hand with AK
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] It's okay to call preflop but you should bet every flop then. [/ QUOTE ] huh? [/ QUOTE ] I'm not sure what the logic for that one is either. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]
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#19
10-31-2004, 06:21 AM
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Re: Interesting hand with AK
If you're just calling preflop, it is with the intention of taking down more pots than you would have if you had threebet. The best way to do this is to bet into the preflop raiser. The raiser might raise a hand worse than AK and puts everyone else to the test.
Betting every flop was an exaggeration, but not much of one. You should be betting a lot of them here, otherwise threebetting preflop and make your money then. -Michael
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#20
10-31-2004, 06:34 AM
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Re: Interesting hand with AK
Anyone first in to cold-calling an utg-raise usually has no clue or very little clue on pre-flop play in my opinion. When I see someone cold-call like MP3 did I usually put them in a weaker player-category like those cold-calling with any pair, any ace or any suited connector.
Most often I will raise here pre-flop just to make those cold-callers pay more for their weak cold-calling. MP3's 3-bet on the flop is worriesome, but quite natural if he holds an ace since pf-raiser if not weak will raise you with many holdings including those without an ace at all (KK, QQ). I dont like your fold on the flop without ironclad reads on the oponents and even so I think TPTK will be good for a split in most cases. I would like to see a showdown here even if just to see the Ace-rag-two-pair in MP3.
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