the amount of cheating in poker

[hot tub man # 1]

I've been fooling around on RPG a bit lately and keep coming across numerous posts about cheating. One former cheat, who doesnt appear to be too popular among the rest of the posters claims, there is cheating the majority of high stakes poker games. How can this be true if the same well known players, Hennigan, Forrest, Harmon, etc keep beating the games? How much card marking and collusion really goes on at the higher limits? Anyone have a good idea?

This same player also claims to be cashing out 5 figues a month playing online, so perhaps I shouldnt take his opinions so seriously.

[D.J.]

One of my pro friends in Vegas didn't say there is a lot of cheating going on, however, my friend did say that at least 2 very high profile players were cheaters that they knew of, and would never play in the same game as them. I don't know how much factual info there was behind that or speculation, but I wouldn't expect to hear BS from this respected pro. I'm not really worried about the players that were mentioned b/c I'm not going to be playing that high any time soon, however, I can say that there is a fair amount of collusion/team playing at upper mid-limits that I KNOW of. Cheating is not rampant, however it does exist, wherever there is money involved, you can bet scams are near. One more quote from my Texas buddies, "The fleas come with the dog".

-D.J.

[Grambo]

You are a fool if you don't listen to what Russ has to say. He knows of which he speaks. I was fired from 2 different LARGE cardrooms for going to management when I saw what was going on. I don't post on RGP, but read most every post written about cheating, and can verify a lot of what Russ says from PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE, and have heard a lot more from reliable sources. Anyone to think a poker table with thousands of dollars on it isn't going to try to be scammed in some way by someone is a fool.

[**MR.MANHATTAN**]

plenty of cheating going on,from the philipino mafia at the 1-2 games in comm. to the highest stakes games in bellagio........russ might not be liked,but he's honest.

[Howard Burroughs]

Hi MM,

Can you back up your Bellagio statement with any proof?

Or is this just more of your misinformation ala Vegas rakes, Western poker room, your comments on Nick B & Russ H, your comments about the El Cortez players & managment teaming up against tourists (LOL), etc,etc,etc!

I know you told Dave Keiser that most of your posts are meant to be funny. Being a fountain of misinformation is no laughing matter IMHO.


I don't mean to sound sour, but coming to 2+2 and saying what you just said about the Bellagio is pretty serious stuff. How about some facts to back it up?


Or an apology to Doug Dalton?


Thanks in advance.


Best Wishes

Howard

[Tommy Angelo]

"I don't mean to sound sour, but coming to 2+2 and saying what you just said about the Bellagio is pretty serious stuff. How about some facts to back it up?"

Howard,

I am woefully uninformed on this topic because when people talk about bad stuff that has no effect on me, I run away with my ears covered.

But ...

And I ask this not just of you, but of anyone concerned about cheating at the big games at the Bellagio.

Why do you care?

Let's say it was proved, or merely conjectured, that there was cheating on the PGA golf tour. Would that affect any of your golfing decisions?

I just don't see how the goings on inside one of the smallest player pools in the country has anything to do with you or me.

with warmth,

Tommy

[PokerBabe(aka)]

Tommy, I do not have any information about whether cheating occurs at Bellagio, and thus, I am certainly not qualified to comment. I can only say that I think we should win by skill rather than shill. And, like Howard, I care because I think cheating is wrong at any time, at any place, in any game, and with any player(s). Just because we don't play in those games does not mean we aren't interested in their integrity. Babe [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img]

[Jimbo]

Tommy were these players born high rollers or did they perhaps work there way up through the ranks like many players here on these forums aspire to do? If the latter is more likely then why would they just now start cheating (if they are, I am not accusing anyone of that at all)? So your comment about why would Howard care is way out of line or at the very least not well thought out prior to your posting. If it is possible to work your way up so to speak by cheating then we would be at risk at most any limit. Make any sense Tommy? Sticking your head in the sand simply makes you look like an ostrich.

"I am woefully uninformed on this topic because when people talk about bad stuff that has no effect on me, I run away with my ears covered." I believe I have addressed this comment sufficiently.

"Let's say it was proved, or merely conjectured, that there was cheating on the PGA golf tour. Would that affect any of your golfing decisions? " Last time I checked this was a poker forum. Ask this same question on a golf forum and marvel at what kind of responses you elicit.

"I just don't see how the goings on inside one of the smallest player pools in the country has anything to do with you or me." I hope after reading my post you will at least reconsider this statement.

Edited Below:

Although I think some of your poker theory is a bit kooky I have come to respect you through your posts on this forum as well as your articles. Please do not take the matter of potential cheating in poker lightly whether you believe it affects you directly today or not.

Regards,

[Howard Burroughs]

"I am woefully uninformed on this topic because when people talk about bad stuff that has no effect on me, I run away with my ears covered. But ...
And I ask this not just of you, but of anyone concerned about cheating at the big games at the Bellagio.
Why do you care?"


I care because.......


1) Doug Dalton (Director of Poker Operations for Bellagio) has always been very generous to myself and friends. Even though I play pretty low stakes. we've been treated like royalty. I just hate to see a class guy like that (with a big heart), slandered without facts. Especially on a respected site like 2+2.


2) MM Light said,
"plenty of cheating going on,from the philipino mafia at the 1-2 games in comm. to the highest stakes games in bellagio........russ might not be liked,but he's honest."


He did not say, "Cheating may be going on." He said, PLENTY of cheating IS going on at the highest stakes Bellagio.
Call me a country bumpkin from Missouri but I say "Show me". Back it
up.


Then he adds insult to injury with his Russ is honest line. Ask Mason, David or Ray how honest Russ is.


I'm sure some of what Russ says in his 1,000,001 rgp posts are true. But he himself has admitted to putting out misinformation. And he could not give Gary Carson a single solid piece of information/evidence in a phone conversation about ANY cheating at Bellagio or any Vegas cheating in the modern era!


3) I care because there could be a trickle down effect. When he says plenty of cheating at the highest stakes games at Bellagio, if MM Light has credibility from a potential 2+2 reader; our 2+2 lurker may not know what "Highest limits" means. And stay away from any poker playing on his next trip to the desert. For god's sake, Russ said one world class player (Ted F) was wearing an ear piece in cahoots with management at Bellagio in order to cheat, that Stu Ungar wore x-ray glasses to win world championships, etc. etc. (no, I'm not making these Russ G accusations up, for those unfamiliar with rgp Russ).


And to think, MM Light said, "Russ might not be liked, but he's honest".


*********************************

More Tommy:

"Let's say it was proved, or merely conjectured, that there was cheating on the PGA golf tour. Would that affect any of your golfing decisions?"


I can't relate to golf. But what if Tommy Angelo decided to enter a poker tournament and won the damn thing. Then someone came onto 2+2 and said Tommy won the tournament because he cheated. Just because I did not play in that tournament (or that I'm a little peon kitchen table player), as a reader of 2+2 and as friend of Tommy Angelo's AND as a believer in truth, justice & fair play, I want someone to back up those accusations with fact or be exposed for the fraud they are. One, or the other; facts or fraud.


More Tommy,


"I just don't see how the goings on inside one of the smallest player pools in the country has anything to do with you or me."


It has nothing to do with you or me and it has everything to do with you and me.
What those guys do at each other's house's is their business. When they are accused of working hand in hand with management to cheat
players (using electronic equipment according to Russ), & when they accuse Stu Ungar of winning championships by using x-ray vision glasses (according to Russ); I don't care how low I am on the poker food chain, I say SHOW ME the facts to back up your talk.
But maybe it's just me?


"with warmth,
Tommy"


Taco Bell's on me, next time I see ya partner.


Best of Luck

Howard

[**MR.MANHATTAN**]

sort of like horse racing? u know some races are fixed? yes? as long as u have the fixed horse. as for cheating in the bellagio tommy, cmon. theres cheating at the bike and commerce to. lets be for real......and i dont mean card mechanics tommy,i mean2-3 guys/gals playing out the same bankroll in a 60-120 game,30-60.......ahh whats the use,who cares......play on,play on