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#1
12-13-2005, 01:51 AM
 Benman Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 40
Pre-flop Theory Question

Limit hold'em, not in a blind, and you have a hand worth playing pre-flop. If the "proper" play is to call, how much worse is raising? What's the worst case violation, expectation wise?
#2
12-13-2005, 03:55 AM
 TTChamp Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Job Hunting Posts: 517
Re: Pre-flop Theory Question

I'm not sure I totally understand your question.

I have been playing sort handed lately, so in my book if you are first in, you always want to raise (I think the same is true first in from late position in a full game).

I get the geeling that you are talking about the situation where you have a hand like T9s in middle position in a full game. No one else has come in and you want to limp. In those types of situations, the expectation of limping vs. raising is highly dependent on the players to your left.

Is the BB a call down artist who will go to SD with K high? Is the player to your left a smart LAG who will 3 bet you and bet every street. Get what I'm saying?

Another improtant factor is how many players are acting after you. From early postion a rasie with T9s is much worse expectation wise (metagame considerations aside) than a raise first in form the button with T9s. IMO there is no time where it is correct to limp first in from the Button or CO.

Looking back at your post you may be talking about any time you want to limp even if others are in the pot. If 5 players have limped behind you, then raising with A2s would be a big mistake.
#3
12-13-2005, 10:46 PM
 ohnonotthat Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: New Jersey - near A.C. Posts: 511
Re: Pre-flop Theory Question

[ QUOTE ]

If 5 players have limped behind you, then raising with A2s would be a big mistake.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think what you meant to say is,

"If 5 players have limped behind you raising A2s is close to a no-brainer".

Small pairs, suited connectors and suited Aces are excellent late position raises when several opponents have already limped in.

In other words, everything you said was right - except for, well, everything you said. [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

* Re. "behind" - I'm assuming you meant "before" [you], as in you're on the button, 5 players limp, 2 fold, and it's now up to you.

I'm not sure it's possible for anyone to ever [legally] "limp behind you".

*

You have had your knuckles officially rapped; it doesn't mean we don't love you, it simply means you had it coming. [img]/images/graemlins/ooo.gif[/img]

*

#4
12-14-2005, 03:13 AM
 BradleyT Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Milwaukee Posts: 512
Re: Pre-flop Theory Question

[ QUOTE ]

I think what you meant to say is,

"If 5 players have limped behind you raising A2s is close to a no-brainer".

Small pairs, suited connectors and suited Aces are excellent late position raises when several opponents have already limped in.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah way to destroy your implied odds on the exact hands that need those odds to be playable.
#5
12-14-2005, 03:24 AM
 ohnonotthat Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: New Jersey - near A.C. Posts: 511
Now see here -

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I think what you meant to say is,

"If 5 players have limped behind you raising A2s is close to a no-brainer".

Small pairs, suited connectors and suited Aces are excellent late position raises when several opponents have already limped in.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah way to destroy your implied odds on the exact hands that need those odds to be playable.

[/ QUOTE ]

*

I see you've posted almost 4,000 times.

Let me know when you get to having READ as many.

I will explain the nature of your ignorance IF and only if you promise to IM me with the table number whenever you sit down.

P.S. I would have been more gentle had you prefaced your opinion with something like, "I may be wrong" OR "I may be an imbecile but" . . .

- Chris

*

Would anyone like to help this lost soul ?

(Suggestion: Use small words).
#6
12-14-2005, 10:52 AM
 BradleyT Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Milwaukee Posts: 512
Re: Now see here -

Well I was going to tell you to stick to poker because your comedy sucks but I also see your poker sucks too.
#7
12-14-2005, 07:56 PM
 I am fish Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 11
Re: Pre-flop Theory Question

[ QUOTE ]
I think what you meant to say is,

"If 5 players have limped behind you raising A2s is close to a no-brainer".

Small pairs, suited connectors and suited Aces are excellent late position raises when several opponents have already limped in. [ QUOTE ]
Yeah way to destroy your implied odds on the exact hands that need those odds to be playable.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

I think what Ohnonotthat is saying is that although it appears that you would be destroying your implied odds by putting in an extra bet preflop, that you are in fact helping your implied odds. By investing an extra small bet preflop, you are encouraging everyone to stay in the hand in the later streets since the pot will be bigger. Usually when you make a hand with a small pair, suited connector, Axs, it will be a very strong hand. Therefore, it doesn't really hurt you when you have people sticking around since you will typically have to make the hand you are drawing to to win.

I will now quote from Hold'em Poker for Advanced players...

[ QUOTE ]
One of the nice things about raising with suited cards before the flop (especially the ace suited), is that when you flop a flush, or for that matter a four-flush, you welcome all bottom pairs calling. They may be right to call, but it doesn't hurt you. They may be making money by calling on the flop because there are other people involved. But they are not taking money from you. They are making you money

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Thus, one of the reasons to raise with these flush cards is because if you flop the draw, by making the pot bigger, people now play hands that can't win against your hand if you hit it. (This is also why if there are many players in, it is right to raise with small pairs on the button.

[/ QUOTE ]
#8
12-14-2005, 09:13 PM
 BradleyT Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Milwaukee Posts: 512
Re: Pre-flop Theory Question

fish,

Pages 53, 67, 70 and 71 of SSHE disagrees with that advice.

Anyway, I digress. ohnonotthat is a class act as obvious by his reply.
#9
12-14-2005, 09:30 PM
 ohnonotthat Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: New Jersey - near A.C. Posts: 511
That is

precisely what "ohnonotthat" was saying. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

It backfires against great players since they won't fall for it; it backfires against horrible players because it's simply not necessary - they need no [additional] inducement to pursue all the way to the river (although even nitwits are more inclined to chase dreams if the pot is large).

*

Note to Bradley T. - Ponder the words of Abraham Lincoln . . .

"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt". [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
#10
12-15-2005, 01:08 PM
 Benman Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 40
Re: Pre-flop Theory Question

[ QUOTE ]
If 5 players have limped behind you, then raising with A2s would be a big mistake.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't agree with this, necessarily. If A2s has positive pot equity following 5 limpers (let's assume it does based on the game, your reads, ranges, etc.), then won't it continue to have positive pot equity for two bets instead of one?

Now, if you didn't think the hand had positive pot equity, but might have favorable implied odds due to your position, then raising might not be ideal.

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