The nature of 800 chip games

[45suited]

[ QUOTE ]
Automatically I'd be putting him on AK, KK QQ, maybe JJ..but I always think worse case.

[/ QUOTE ]

As I said in my OP, the C/R was dumb. But my god, this is a 22. I'd never put a caller of my raise on a range that narrow. Have you played a 22 recently? Do you see the crap that guys call with pre-flop?

[Scuba Chuck]

The only way to get away from this hand is to fold preflop. BTW, if you were button, and had aces, would you play it any different?

Anyway, this hand reminded me of a hand I played last night that I thought was interesting. FWIW, I don't play Kings the way button did, I hate giving infinite odds for villain to hit his ace.

***** Hand History for Game 3277553297 *****
15/30 Tourney Texas Hold'em Game Table (NL) (Tournament 18690672) - Wed Dec 28 22:14:03 EST 2005
Table Table 67196 (Real Money) -- Seat 10 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: rockondisco (890)
Seat 2: bsec35 (800)
Seat 3: sickhamlet (800)
Seat 4: APD03 (800)
Seat 5: MickeyCe77 (720)
Seat 6: syd1976guy (800)
Seat 7: BenzoFive (800)
Seat 8: mcdono19 (800)
Seat 9: bacon123321 (790)
Seat 10: Scuba_Chuck (800)
rockondisco posts small blind (10)
bsec35 posts big blind (15)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Scuba_Chuck [ Ac, Ah ]
sickhamlet raises (30) to 30
APD03 folds.
MickeyCe77 folds.
syd1976guy folds.
BenzoFive folds.
mcdono19 folds.
bacon123321 folds.
Scuba_Chuck raises (100) to 100
rockondisco calls (90)
bsec35 folds.
sickhamlet calls (70)
** Dealing Flop ** : [ 5h, 5d, 3c ]
rockondisco checks.
sickhamlet checks.
Scuba_Chuck bets (175)
rockondisco calls (175)
sickhamlet calls (175)
** Dealing Turn ** : [ 9s ]
rockondisco checks.
sickhamlet checks.
Scuba_Chuck bets (525)
Scuba_Chuck is all-In.
rockondisco calls (525)
sickhamlet folds.
** Dealing River ** : [ 8s ]
Creating Main Pot with $1890 with Scuba_Chuck
** Summary **
Main Pot: 1890 |
Board: [ 5h 5d 3c 9s 8s ]
rockondisco balance 90, lost 800 [ Kh Kc ] [ two pairs, kings and fives -- Kh,Kc,9s,5h,5d ]
sickhamlet balance 525, lost 275 (folded)
<font color="red"> sickhamlet said he folded QQ. So he min-raised ladies utg. </font>
Scuba_Chuck balance 1890, bet 800, collected 1890, net +1090 [ Ac Ah ] [ two pairs, aces and fives -- Ac,Ah,9s,5h,5d ]

[45suited]

[ QUOTE ]
The only way to get away from this hand is to fold preflop. BTW, if you were button, and had aces, would you play it any different?

[/ QUOTE ]

Much differently. I would not smooth call with aces from the button. I'd re-pop it and try to get all my money in pre-flop.

I would have preferred this, of course, since I'd have folded my AQ to a substantial re-raise.

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]
FWIW, I don't play Kings the way button did, I hate giving infinite odds for villain to hit his ace.

[/ QUOTE ]

On the other hand, if you think you have an overaggressive villain who will fire repeated shots here with AQ but laydown if you make a move, this is a great way to extract with KK. It's hard to look at some of these things in a vacuum.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
FWIW, I don't play Kings the way button did, I hate giving infinite odds for villain to hit his ace.

[/ QUOTE ]

On the other hand, if you think you have an overaggressive villain who will fire repeated shots here with AQ but laydown if you make a move, this is a great way to extract with KK. It's hard to look at some of these things in a vacuum.

[/ QUOTE ]

I read an old post by William (I think) that was not related to this situation, but applies. He said something like, "no matter how diabolical your plan, an ace always has outs." My point is, I think trapping with KK against an ace has too many drawbacks. If you're playing against an overaggressive villain whose minimal faults include overplaying AQ, I think you should choose a higher vpiper than this guy to do this with.

I see what you're saying. I just prefer a different approach in these 800 chip games.

[Dr_Jeckyl_00]

I don't know if it is possible to avoid doubling up the button. But I don't like your CR on the flop. What if villain checks, you've given him a free card in case he is on a draw. I think a half pot bet on the flop is best. He will likely raise you and maybe you can fold, but I think the best players probably call and check it down. People on this forum claim that you should not go broke with tptk, (and some claim they can fold here) but I don't recall anyone ever posting such a hand. To your point... there are not enough chips to get away from strong hands... even at level 2!

[45suited]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know if it is possible to avoid doubling up the button. But I don't like your CR on the flop. What if villain checks, you've given him a free card in case he is on a draw. I think a half pot bet on the flop is best. He will likely raise you and maybe you can fold

[/ QUOTE ]


That's my point, I'm not folding here. The check was bad. Once he bet, I should have just C/R'd all-in immediately.

I was pretty sure he'd bet, and there were so many cards that I wouldn't really like on the turn, so I figured I'd C/R. Meh.

[11t]

No you can't, you aren't deep stacked enough.

The button is awful anyways. Flat calling with KK, blech.

[J-Lo]

i consider this to be a coinflip like situation, not this exact hand, but hands like these where u have big hands and your oponents also have big hands. If u lose w/ KK to AA or AA to KK, it's a coinflip, if u switch players then the outcome would be the same-- this is NOT where your ROI comes from, it comes from players who misplay their good/bad hands.

it's not how u play big hands vs big hands that provide the largest % of your ROI, it's how u play big hands vs poor hands (read players), bubble play, and table selection.

[curtains]

You are obviously doomed once that flop comes. I dont raise it preflop but thats just me.