A simple bluffing hand

[ajmargarine]

Reads: villian (BB) buys in short, tries to play poker. Average at best, borderline weak/tight. He has about $105, Hero covers. He's not one to bet his draws, so I'm pretty sure his flop bet means he has 8x.

$1/$2 NLHE 8-handed

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $1, CO posts a blind of $2.
2 folds, MP1 calls $2, Hero calls $2, CO checks, 1 fold, SB calls $1, Villian checks.

Flop: ($9.50) 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="blue"> (5 players)</font>
SB checks, BB bets $5.60, MP1 folds, Hero calls $5.60, CO folds, SB folds.

Turn: ($20.20) A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="blue"> (2 players)</font>
Villian bets $4, Hero calls $4.

River: ($27.95) K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="blue"> (2 players)</font>
Villian checks, Hero bets $25...

I call the flop because I am fairly certain what he has, one pair of 8's. I call so I can make a move on him on later streets (plus, I have a gutshot and two overs to his likely hand). The question is should I make the move on the turn when I pick up the flush draw (and the scary ace) or should I wait until the river like I did. Comments on all streets appreciated.

i would've raised up the turn

[ajmargarine]

[ QUOTE ]
i would've raised up the turn

[/ QUOTE ]

That's not really helpful. Why would you do it on the turn? What are the +/-'s of doing it there as opposed to waiting until the river?

There are many reasons I'd raise the turn...firstly, I wouldn't let anyone bet $4 into that pot, I would raise here with anything. On top of that, you have a good hand that wants some value in the pot. If you hit your hand on the river, it will be hard to get any value if you don't raise the turn. Additionally, you stand a chance at taking the pot here, which is fine, since you don't have a made hand anyways.

If you wait until the river, then there's 2 scenarios. If you hit, then you try and get some value...but since you didn't bet the turn, it'll be harder to get much out of him. If you miss, then you now have to bluff with nothing, or concede the pot over to him, which may have been avoided by taking the pot down on the turn.

EDIT-- a point I missed was also that raising the turn makes it easier to bluff the river

[einbert]

Definitely raise the turn.

[4_2_it]

I like raising the turn because it disguises your flush draw. If a club hits the river I doubt you see much action. If you believe you had 17 clean outs (clubs, 7, 9,or T) then a turn raise is the bets way to build a pot.

I like the bluff on the river because it looks like villain has given up. I can't picture what hand he checks that he can call a pot-sized bet. Very rarely will someone try to check raise a caller who has this passive on the river. You just lose too much value when it is checked behind.

[swolfe]

[ QUOTE ]
i would've raised up the turn

[/ QUOTE ]

his bet is too weak and i want to pick up the pot now. i have a lot of outs if called.

[PeteGI]

I agree with bumping the turn as well. What hand are you trying to represent with the big bet on the river? It looks like a weak bet by him on the turn, so try to take it with a big bet then. If he calls you are most definitely beat, but could still make the best hand.

I would have raised on the Turn. You're either representing a Ace or set that you were slow-playing. If called you at least have outs. If you're called on the River you have no outs. If the player is boderline weak/tight he folds his 8s to any significant resistance.

[wdeadwyler]

I also like the turn raise, that ace is prob a scare card for him, and IF he calls, we still have alot of outs to hit. Just calling on the turn is ok, but I prob wouldnt bluff the river then.