if God exists outside of time + space...how can?

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A computer programmer has no trouble interacting with a computer simulation despite existing outside it, so why should it be a problem for god?

chez

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This is an moronic response. The computer and the computer programmer exist in the same dimensions.

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Actually, Chez's answer is by far the most insightful one here, but it is apparently lost on you. I can create my own "universe" in n-dimensional spacetime (not nessisarily 4 dimensional) on a computer. In principle (if the computer memory is big enough), life could evolve in this "computer universe" and have arguments over the existence of a creator. The creator (me) would have no problem halting and inserting "miracles" into the program -- i.e. events that do not follow from the programmed "laws of physics" and initial conditions alone. In fact, it is impossible to rule this out as a possibility for our own universe, and you can even point to evidence for something like it if you can find a miracle...

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Wow, a response even more obtuse than Chez's. Awesome! What are you going to do, program the big bang? I would like to see that. Maybe it's already happened, I thought it was a virus but now I am seeing spaceships coming out.

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Yes -- the big bang (in a suitable theory free of singularity) represents the initial conditions, and the laws of physics evolve the system forward in a well-defined way. The analogy is, in fact, perfect. The fact that you personally do not understand it does not effect the power of the argument.

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Obviously, you don't get what I am saying, Metric. The question was if god does not exist in our space/time than how can he communicate to us? Chez said a computer programmer can communicate with a computer. But both the computer and the programmer exist in one set of space and time. Hence the analogy is misguided.

Your softverse is just as misguided. Your softverse would constitute a set of 1's and 0's existing the computer, in other words either non-randomly aligned pieces of iron on a memory device, or a series of circuits that are either on or off in a powered CPU. But the CPU (or floppy disk) still exist in the same set of space and time as the programmer.

God you are right, I really don't understand it, do I?

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A computer programmer has no trouble interacting with a computer simulation despite existing outside it, so why should it be a problem for god?

chez

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This is an moronic response. The computer and the computer programmer exist in the same dimensions.

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Actually, Chez's answer is by far the most insightful one here, but it is apparently lost on you. I can create my own "universe" in n-dimensional spacetime (not nessisarily 4 dimensional) on a computer. In principle (if the computer memory is big enough), life could evolve in this "computer universe" and have arguments over the existence of a creator. The creator (me) would have no problem halting and inserting "miracles" into the program -- i.e. events that do not follow from the programmed "laws of physics" and initial conditions alone. In fact, it is impossible to rule this out as a possibility for our own universe, and you can even point to evidence for something like it if you can find a miracle...

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Wow, a response even more obtuse than Chez's. Awesome! What are you going to do, program the big bang? I would like to see that. Maybe it's already happened, I thought it was a virus but now I am seeing spaceships coming out.

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Yes -- the big bang (in a suitable theory free of singularity) represents the initial conditions, and the laws of physics evolve the system forward in a well-defined way. The analogy is, in fact, perfect. The fact that you personally do not understand it does not effect the power of the argument.

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Obviously, you don't get what I am saying, Metric. The question was if god does not exist in our space/time than how can he communicate to us? Chez said a computer programmer can communicate with a computer. But both the computer and the programmer exist in one set of space and time. Hence the analogy is misguided.

Your softverse is just as misguided. Your softverse would constitute a set of 1's and 0's existing the computer, in other words either non-randomly aligned pieces of iron on a memory device, or a series of circuits that are either on or off in a powered CPU. But the CPU (or floppy disk) still exist in the same set of space and time as the programmer.

God you are right, I really don't understand it, do I?

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Apparently, you still do not. Spacetime itsself is simulated on the computer, as well as any matter fields you wish to simulate. That is, equations of motion for the computer universe may exist in as many dimensions as you wish to program -- it need not be the same "set of four" that you are familiar with.

The fact that the computer itsself exists in our four dimensions, and that memory is stored on "physical" degrees of freedom is meaningless to beings living in the computer universe -- there is no experiment that they can perform to deduce the real laws of physics that their computer and the programmer himself is subject to. "Physical" space and time (from your point of view) are meaningless to them. All their experiments can do is uncover the nature of the program -- that is, the physical law of the computer universe that the programmer has given them. And this program will in general have its own, independent notion of space and time.

Since the programmer is not subject himself to the physical law of the programmed universe, he exists quite literally "outside of space and time" from the point of view of beings living inside the computer -- yet he is free to communicate with beings inside the program and has no problem doing so. This was Chez's point, and he assumed you could connect the dots from there, but, well -- here we are.

The beings in your softverse still exist in our dimensions because they are composed of 1's and 0's, which exist in our world as I stated earlier. Just because they don't realize it themselves does not change the fact it's true. Two thousand years ago, no one knew about black holes, are you telling me they didn't exist until we figured it out?

Or maybe black holes existed in another set of space/time, until we thought of them and then they moved over into ours.

BTW - The people in my computer just figured out the nature of their existence, they are erasing themselves like lemmings. What's up with that?

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The beings in your softverse still exist in our dimensions because they are composed of 1's and 0's, which exist in our world as I stated earlier. Just because they don't realize it themselves does not change the fact it's true.

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Now you're starting to come nearer to the point. If you postulate that we are the "computer beings" and that God is the "programmer" -- you have a physically realizable framework in which the universe could exist as it is, and God is free to intervene however and whenever he chooses. In fact, this sort of "God" could very naturally meet most of the definitions of "omnipotent" and "omnitient" that the more influential religions would like...

None of this means that this is the nature of the universe and God, of course -- but it short circuits a great many philosophical "there is no God" proofs, since it is, in principle, possible for us to create a universe and "play God" in this way.

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Two thousand years ago, no one knew about black holes, are you telling me they didn't exist until we figured it out?

Or maybe black holes existed in another set of space/time, until we thought of them and then they moved over into ours.

BTW - The people in my computer just figured out the nature of their existence, they are erasing themselves like lemmings. What's up with that?

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Whatever you say, man...

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Now you're starting to come nearer to the point. If you postulate that we are the "computer beings" and that God is the "programmer" -- you have a physically realizable framework in which the universe could exist as it is, and God is free to intervene however and whenever he chooses. In fact, this sort of "God" could very naturally meet most of the definitions of "omnipotent" and "omnitient" that the more influential religions would like...


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Yeah - I see this point, but I still do not understand how you go from to saying that to saying computer programmer and the sentient programs in the softverse don't exist in the same set of space and time? Are we even on the same page here Metric? I understand that to the soft beings it will seem like a separate universe, but it is not, and they still exist in the same set of space and time as the programmer. Thus in the softverse example, the sentient program and the programmer (i.e., god) still occupy the same set of space and time, its just that the programs don't realize it.

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Yeah - I see this point, but I still do not understand how you go from to saying that to saying computer programmer and the sentient programs in the softverse don't exist in the same set of space and time? Are we even on the same page here Metric? I understand that to the soft beings it will seem like a separate universe, but it is not, and they still exist in the same set of space and time as the programmer. Thus in the softverse example, the sentient program and the programmer (i.e., god) still occupy the same set of space and time, its just that the programs don't realize it.

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Yes -- the computer has its own independent existence in the "physical universe" that the "soft beings" are unaware of. But if we are the "soft beings" -- all bets are off as to whether the concept of "space" and "time" even make sense in the true physical reality, or if they are simply constructs generated for us by the program. About all that can be assumed is that the "true" physical reality should contain many, many more degrees of freedom than our universe (just as a computer controls far fewer computational bits in "memory" than the "physical" degrees of freedom -- atoms, etc.-- that make up its components).