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Old 11-29-2005, 06:31 PM
pocket3s pocket3s is offline
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Default Aggression in Pot-Limit Omaha

Okay, here is the deal. We have been told by every poker player in every poker book since the beginning of time to play tight and aggressive. I am starting to doubt this in pot-limit omaha...why you ask? Let's use the example of a middle set. The flop comes A K 7 with two hearts, you hold two kings but no flush draw and no chance at a straight. Now What? Nobody raised preflop so you have to assume nobody has aces and you have the best hand right now, so you bet the pot (remember aggression), and of course you get two callers. The turn is a blank, the 3 of clubs which helped nobody. Again you bet and here is where everything goes ary, the first player doesn't have the pot odds to call but ALWAYS does, and now the other guy can't fold, he's getting three to one on his money. Now the river is one of those scare cards, the A of hearts. At first it seems good for you, you caught your boat, but what about aces full? Now what? Anything less than a pot size bet looks weak, but you've made the pot so big that it cost you a bunch of money to bet out with the 5th best hand and hope nobody calls or you can check and hope it goes check check behind you. I usually opt to check, then one of my opponents pulls the trigger on that pot sized bet. Now a million things run through my mind, I have all this money in the pot, Did he just catch a nut flush? Why the hell would someone call all that money with just two pair after the turn?...All these questions make me want to call which I can't do because I built the pot up so big that putting in all that money with the fifth best hand seems ridiculous to me. I have typed all this to ask this question, in this game is there a time to ignore "conventional" wisdom and slowplay so that on the river you're able to make the call?
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Old 11-29-2005, 06:49 PM
beset7 beset7 is offline
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Default Re: Aggression in Pot-Limit Omaha

One thing that jumps out at me is you haven't made any mention of your opponents or how they play and seem too focused on the cards alone. That works in PLO8b to some extent but not in PLO high. If you want to play without regard to your opponents just nut peddle and check/fold middle set on the flop. And to specifically answer your question I almost never slowplay.
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Old 11-29-2005, 11:00 PM
pocket3s pocket3s is offline
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Default Re: Aggression in Pot-Limit Omaha

This was just an example of the types of hands I've been running into the past couple of days, not a particular hand. What do you do on the river when you're out of position and a scare card comes? How much do you think the limits I play (usually .25/50 or .50/1.00 PL) have to do with this problem?
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Old 11-30-2005, 02:38 AM
joewatch joewatch is offline
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Default Re: Aggression in Pot-Limit Omaha

You will get a lot of bad beats in PLO, but also win a lot of huge pots.

Just remember - winning PLO is all about understanding opponents, knowing the odds and outs, and utilizing position. If you play solid poker, the chips will go your way in the long run. Also, don't worry about players being too loose at your level. If you aren't a winning player at $25/$50, you won't be at $100/$200.

To answer your question, I believe that unlike NLHE, "slow playing" the flopped nuts is often the correct move in PLO, because you are often a dog to a big draw with 2 cards to come.
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Old 11-30-2005, 09:24 AM
BluffTHIS! BluffTHIS! is offline
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Default Re: Aggression in Pot-Limit Omaha

You don't always have to build a big pot out of position on a strong drawing board when you have no draws yourself to go with a set. After you have bet the flop in the situation you describe, checking is a viable option. That way when a certain draw gets there that the opponents didn't actually have, you get to see a cheaper showdown because they are worried that you might be lying in the weeds. And if one of them is aggressive enough to bet the turn when you check, then checkraising is often the best option when you can get most of your stack in by doing so. If you are playing against unknowns, then it is harder to figure out what is the best plan. But if you know their tendencies, especially how aggressive or passive they are, then you can figure out better what to do. And if one of them likes to smoothcall the flop with top 2 or bottom set, then checkraising is often the best turn move, and the one more likely to get a 3rd player with a weak draw to fold, leaving you headsup with a dominated hand.

You can't ever let regular opponents know that a bet always means a made hand and not a draw, that you never bluff even for your whole stack, or that a check on any street means you don't have the nuts. Otherwise you won't get paid off enough, won't get any free cards, and will get run off the best hand at their pleasure every time a scare card comes.
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Old 11-30-2005, 11:35 AM
fuzzbox fuzzbox is offline
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Default Re: Aggression in Pot-Limit Omaha

You can check the river planning to call, sometimes you lose, but you only have to win 1/3 to break even. You can fold to check, pot, push, or check, pot, call type action.

However, it would be strange to see two callers, and then see the A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] appear. (especially if the K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] is also on board).
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  #7  
Old 11-30-2005, 12:50 PM
chekthastak chekthastak is offline
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Default Re: Aggression in Pot-Limit Omaha

As long as you give your opponents incorrect odds to draw then in the long run you are the winner, just keep that in mind. You have a set somebody is on a flush draw, they are roughly 4:1 to hit the flush on the Turn and then another 4:1 to hit on the river. They also have ZERO implied odds because once that flush gets there it's time to check fold in a mulitiway pot. Also they have 2 or 3 deads cards, depending on if you have made a set with a flush card or not, so they are really down to 6 or 7 outs which makes their draw very weak.

Aggression is still key in PLO, but it's more selective aggresion, then the relentless aggresive approach that works in NL HE. Just keep making the correct plays and your opponents mistakes will make you money.
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Old 11-30-2005, 01:55 PM
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Default Re: Re: Aggression in Pot-Limit Omaha

I agree that slowplaying is terrible, but I think that playing hands slow is not necessarily bad. For instance, there is no point in playing the KKxx hand fast here, no matter what the situation is because people are going to call ur bet with a FD and then someone else might call with a wrap SD and you are behind if both of these people are in. What I think is better idea (once again as beset said, not knowing what the other players are like) is checking this flop and letting someone else raise. So lets create a theoretical situation since pocket3s didnt give us any real parameters. Since he said he was playing .25/.5 PLO, lets say that there are 6 callers PF so ($3 in the pot). 2 villians and hero each start with $70. The flop comes AKx with 2 hearts. Your in UTG+1 and the sb and bb check. I think with 3 people behind u can check this. Now here are the 2 scenarios. (1) The next player bets pot, fold, call by the button, fold by the blinds, and now back to you. There is currently $9 now in the pot. Which means that you can re-pot so that u call the $3 and put $12 more on top. Its now $12 to the initial raiser. If he raises then he almost definetly has AAxx here, but he could even had top 2 or a wrap SD with FD. (a) But lets say he calls here and the next player takes a while and then call. When the blank turn comes ur all in and with ur 50-21 = 39 and with 12x4= 48 ur all in. So this makes it so that the other players still do not have odds to make this call on either a FD or wrap SD. (b) is where the initial raiser calls and the other guy folds. So now there is 12x3=36 in the pot. And when u pot it on the blank turn u will almost always take it down there. Or you could even try and entice the person to call by betting 2/3pot or something like that.
In scenario (2), the guy behind u calls and the button raises putting the pot to $6. Now you have 2 options. (a) You can re-pot to $9, essentially isolating this pot, unless someone wants to make a rather bad call (not including possible implied odds ... but i can explain why there really are none if someone makes this call). So you dont have this other person with the FD (unless its the nuts, which then u might get a call) will fold and ur back to being down to the button where if he just calls and a blank comes on the turn u can pot it again and take it down on the turn and if a heart or SD card comes, see what happens from there. (2) you just call (something i would rarely do), and if someone comes in behind u, u bet out a blank turn or if its folded around and just u and the initial raiser, try for a check-raise on the turn (since this is essentially why ur smooth-calling this flop).
In all of these situations you are using aggression, but its not blind aggression. Since there are almost always draws out there, its all about timing the aggression properly and unlike NLHE where it is very rare that you would check this flop, in PLO, especially when the pot is small, its right to not bet ur believed nuts.
Also, about this river A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. This is the best possible card for you, if you are really worried about this card then u can check/call anything. The chances of you being behind after this river is much less than 1/3, but I have already posted a lot in this post and if asked I will excplain more in another post.
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