Why am I getting creamed at these games?

I'm getting killed in these ring games, I don't understand it. It's not because I'm getting outplayed because the players SUCK. It's not because I'm playing too many hands because I'm not. Could I be getting a bad run of luck? This is what happened tonight, and these kinds of things have been happening to me in general almost every time I play.

A little while into it I get pocket queens in the cutoff position. It's raised by someone in MP, and I 3-bet it. Donkey in the SB cold calls, and guy in EP who limped in decides he's gonna cap it. The original raiser folds, and it's 3 of us to the flop. Flop comes J-3-2 rainbow and the donkey in the SB bets. I raise, he calls. EP guy calls his bet, and then my raise. Turn comes 4s. Donkey bets out again, EP puts in his final $1, and I raise again. This guy is a Donkey for cold calling 2.5 raises, so I'm not giving him any respect. If he had a good enough hand preflop he would've/should've capped it. River is the 9h, and he bets out again. I raise him again, he calls and turns over pocket 3s. He flopped a set. Unbelieveable. So almost right off the bat I'm $7.25 in the hole.

Another hand I'm in the BB with Q-6o and everyone folds to the SB who limps in. Flop comes A-Q-x, he bets, I raise, he re-raises, I call. Turn comes a blank, and I fold to his bet. Sigh, I thought my middle pair might be good, but I'm not calling two more bets to find out if it is.

Another hand I get pocket Jacks and I raise with them. I of course get plenty of company, four calls. Flop comes all clubs with a Queen. I have the Jc so I'm not completely screwed. I bet, and everyone calls. Turn comes the ace of spades. I bet again (probably foolishly, but I figure maybe since the betting goes up I can get people to drop out of the hand). I get check-raised and I know I'm behind. I call hoping for a flush on the river or the 3rd jack. The other 3 people drop out btw. River comes 9h and the remaining player bets. I type in the chat "I'm not paying off an ace" and I fold. I don't care that the pot was laying 11-1, I was 99% sure they had an ace, so I'm not wasting money paying it off.

Another hand I had AKo in the SB, I raise and the the BB immediately calls (they checked the check/call button). 1 other person who limped in calls also. Flop comes K-J-4, 2 clubs. I have top pair and no redraws. I check with the intention of check-raising to protect my hand, but it gets checked around. Turn is the 3s, I bet this time, and of course the BB calls. The other guy folds. River comes 5c, I check, they bet, I call. Of course they have 5-4 for two pair. How bad do they play? I'm always the one paying off their crappy hands, it should be the other way around.

So these are the kinds of things that always seem to be happening to me. Another thing is I'll have a hand like QJ in EP or MP and I'll call and it'll get raised behind me, so I have to put in another bet and it's 8 SB to the flop. Flop comes A-8-4 or something, giving me 2 undercards and no real draws. Then I have to fold even though the pot is big.

Anyone have any advice for me? I've read SSHE, gone over it a few more times. I feel that I've grasped enough of the concepts so that I can at least make a decent profit, especially at these Fishy $.50/$1 games.

[Eeegah]

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I'm getting killed in these ring games, I don't understand it. It's not because I'm getting outplayed because the players SUCK.

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In that case, move up to $15/30 or 30/60. The players there suck a little less, so you should do better.

[Felipe]

I'm gonna share my thoughts and opinions.

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Another hand I get pocket Jacks and I raise with them. I of course get plenty of company, four calls. Flop comes all clubs with a Queen. I have the Jc so I'm not completely screwed. I bet, and everyone calls. Turn comes the ace of spades. I bet again (probably foolishly, but I figure maybe since the betting goes up I can get people to drop out of the hand). I get check-raised and I know I'm behind. I call hoping for a flush on the river or the 3rd jack. The other 3 people drop out btw. River comes 9h and the remaining player bets. I type in the chat "I'm not paying off an ace" and I fold. I don't care that the pot was laying 11-1, I was 99% sure they had an ace, so I'm not wasting money paying it off.

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What evidence is there that your opponenet had an Ace? How long had you been playing with (against) him? I would have certainly folded if my opponent was a very tight passive rock, or a very passive fish that comes alive with very good hands. Getting 11:1 is good enough barring reads, I would wager.



This:
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I check with the intention of check-raising to protect my hand, but it gets checked around.

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with this:
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I'm getting killed in these ring games, I don't understand it. It's not because I'm getting outplayed because the players SUCK. It's not because I'm playing too many hands because I'm not. Could I be getting a bad run of luck? This is what happened tonight, and these kinds of things have been happening to me in general almost every time I play.

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and this:
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So these are the kinds of things that always seem to be happening to me.

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Clearly don't belong in the same post.

Your opponents didn't make a single mistake on the flop with your AKo hand. YOU MADE THE MISTAKE. Admit to yourself your mistakes, and you will play better poker. (I'm still working on that myself.)

I can recommend a good book (find it used if you can) It is called "zen and the art of poker" (forget author, just search it). It emphasises the notion that just because you are a better player strategically, doesn't mean that you deserve to win anymore than anybody else. Poker is a game of random outcomes, and those outcomes often do NOT benefit the GOOD players, they benefit the bad ones. THis is most unfortunate, but a reality that every player must accept. If you make "fewer" mistakes than your opponents (and less costly ones of course) you will win. But poker is great game that tests your patience, and if you just "can't wait to nail it to those fish" maybe footballs a better sport. You can sack the sorry players immediately, and earn the immediate rewards that that offers (if any). In poker, your rewarded if you are patient. This books helps you realize that you only have control over YOUR own decisions. You cannot crontrol the cards or the other players


I just caught this one at the last second:
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Another hand I'm in the BB with Q-6o and everyone folds to the SB who limps in. Flop comes A-Q-x, he bets, I raise, he re-raises, I call. Turn comes a blank, and I fold to his bet. Sigh, I thought my middle pair might be good, but I'm not calling two more bets to find out if it is.

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A good play here is read dependent. I would probably have done similar , but my decision would have had more bearing on my opponents tendencies and/or habits. You should include those reads when you are discussing hands in the forums.

[Felipe]

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Another hand I had AKo in the SB, I raise and the the BB immediately calls (they checked the check/call button). 1 other person who limped in calls also. Flop comes K-J-4, 2 clubs. I have top pair and no redraws. I check with the intention of check-raising to protect my hand, but it gets checked around. Turn is the 3s, I bet this time, and of course the BB calls. The other guy folds. River comes 5c, I check, they bet, I call. Of course they have 5-4 for two pair. How bad do they play? I'm always the one paying off their crappy hands, it should be the other way around.

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you aren't always paying off their crappy hands. Your hand is obviously the crappy one. It didn't win. Don't expect rewards cause you've been a tight, aggressive player like Miller suggested. You deserve nothing.

You opponent made a mistake on the turn. He called a bet getting 3:1 pot odds (i figure only 3 ppl saw the flop?) By calling, he is going to win 1 time in 9. He's got 5 outs. in odds form that's 41:5 against his hitting his 5 outs. That works out to around 8:1, but he's only getting 3:1 pot odds. Here (on the turn) you should thank him for his stupid call.* You win in the long run when players make calls they shouldn't make, or fold with hands that they shouldn't fold!

Have you read the theory of poker!? It's a very deep book which goes into the heart of the game of poker in ALL variations. It talks about this. SSH does also!!! I suggest you re-read it!!!


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*The math behind this is quite simple

He invests 1 BB to win 3BB
His E(x) or mathematical expectation for the call is:

E(X) = 3 (1/9) - 1 (8/9)
= -0.555...

Each time someone makes a call in a scenario like this, you opponent loses money, and you are gaining it. In this case, you win MORE than 1 small bet every time! This is not to mention the lead you had preflop, and the flop. You made money on those streets too.

[bottomset]

you are likely nowhere near as good as you think you are

and aren't playing as good as you think either

Thanks for the replies. What mistake did I make on the flop with top pair though? Should I have just bet at it? There were 6 SB in the pot, if I bet I'm offering 6.5:1 on a call. Check-raising was the better play in my view, and so was waiting for the turn, where my bet offered 4:1 (not 3:1 right because my bet added to the 3 already in there would make it 4:1). Yeah, I should be thankful for calling stations, but I was just a little frustrated tonight. I should try to pay more attention to my opponents tendencies as well. I haven't read TOP, but maybe I'll pick it up. Thanks again.

[crovax4444]

alright, not to be too harsh on you, but I see a few mistakes in your hands. Since there are vague reads

Hand 1, you were up against a set with an overpair. You were going to lose money no matter what. You just ran into a bit of bad luck

Hand 2, Ya did it right, as it was said earlier, you prob had the worse hand to begin with, and you tried pushing it. It failed, and you folded.

Hand 3, bad luck again, but I think you played this correctly. Btw, it's -EV to chat. FYI.

Hand 4, raise the flop, you have a problem with FPS

Hypothetical hand 5, QJ isn't strong enough in EP or MP according to SSHE (MP is read dependent if your going to play with it, and that's if it's folded to you. Then I'd consider a raise depending on # of players left and how strong they are)

So in conclusion, you have some bad luck, plus your not playing too well. Keep reading SSHE, grunch a lot (80% of my ~100 posts are grunches), read SSHE (I'm on my 2nd read through as well).

Crovax

I'm just curious how many games you've played?

[milesdyson]

damn another one of these threads...

guys, just don't respond to it. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

to the op: there's a beats, brags, and variance forum now. go post this there and get railed.

[MrWookie47]

Naw, the Micro guys are too benevolent and helpful for this. They always turn it into something good and helpful before I can move/lock it. [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]