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  #41  
Old 12-20-2005, 06:23 PM
Custer Custer is offline
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Default Re: Curtains Hand - Early Position Push/No Push

" Kill me now. Like youve never had a situation where you just happen to have only 3.5x the BB. Nope, obviously I must have made mistakes earlier. I hate this argument when its used with low stakes player, please God don't use it on my games."

Obviously it happens. That's why I said "I can't be certain". You could have just lost a hand. You might have had a really bad hand every time it was folded to you. It might never have been folded to you. More likely, though, you passed on a slightly -EV push earlier in the round. At least that is often the case when I look back at tournies where I get into this spot. I think its better to take the slightly -EV push earlier in the round to keep yourself out of this horrible position where you're about to post your last bit of real FE in the BB. I think you disagree with me on this entire theory (that sometimes its right to pass up SMALL +EV situations and sometimes take small -EV situations , because the EV measurements occur in somewhat of a vacuum), and your numbers certainly force anyone to give credence and consideration to anything you have to say on the subject. So maybe part of the reason I'm challenging you on this is so that I can hear more of it.

I steadfastly disagree (for now) on the idea that the best way to play is to put every push/fold and call/fold situation into an ICM vacuum and always make the right play in that vacuum. I think it is sometimes right to pass up small +EV calls in order to ensure yourself the ability to make +EV raises down the road. I think it is sometimes right to make slightly -EV raises in order to ensure that your FE doesn't get blinded off so that you can make +EV raises down the road.

But I want badly to listen to more details of why you disagree.

moses
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  #42  
Old 12-20-2005, 06:26 PM
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Default Re: Curtains Hand - Early Position Push/No Push

[ QUOTE ]

I steadfastly disagree (for now) on the idea that the best way to play is to put every push/fold and call/fold situation into an ICM vacuum and always make the right play in that vacuum. I think it is sometimes right to pass up small +EV calls in order to ensure yourself the ability to make +EV raises down the road. I think it is sometimes right to make slightly -EV raises in order to ensure that your FE doesn't get blinded off so that you can make +EV raises down the road.
moses

[/ QUOTE ]

I've been wrestling with this for a while. I'd like to hear any experienced players comment on why this shouldn't be POTD.
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  #43  
Old 12-20-2005, 06:31 PM
miami32 miami32 is offline
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Default Re: Curtains Hand - Early Position Push/No Push

I don't think you push with this at all...
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  #44  
Old 12-21-2005, 11:11 AM
Custer Custer is offline
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Default Re: Curtains Hand - Early Position Push/No Push

Bump in case curtains didn't see this.
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  #45  
Old 12-21-2005, 11:57 AM
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Default Re: Curtains Hand - Early Position Push/No Push

I fold with so many people behind me.

But I'm a big chicken.
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  #46  
Old 12-21-2005, 03:13 PM
curtains curtains is offline
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Default Re: Curtains Hand - Early Position Push/No Push

[ QUOTE ]
Bump in case curtains didn't see this.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that in general people underestimate their chances when they have no fold equity. They don't give enough weight to the fact that they might be dealt a good hand and win, be dealt a mediocre hand and get lucky, or just happen to be forced allin in the BB and win over your opponents hand, which will usually happen around 30-40% in such situations, which is really not all that terrible.

Of course I would have loved for a great situation to have come up, but one didn't. Im not often in this position but I won't go out of my way and do crazy things to avoid it. btw one problem I have with the J7o push, is that immediately after the blinds we are back down to 700 again anyway. If Im going to risk my tournament life on a crap hand, it bothers me to have to pay back that money right away. I agree that this isn't a very mathematical way of thinking, but I suspect it makes some sense. By this I mean that when you wait for the BB and decide to play it, and you happen to win that hand, you don't have to immediately pay your blind again next hand, and instead have many free hands to pick up something.
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  #47  
Old 12-21-2005, 03:48 PM
Hendricks433 Hendricks433 is offline
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Default Re: Curtains Hand - Early Position Push/No Push

I always feel like I suck or have a leak cause I get into this situation semi often with 5X the BB or less. I guess its normal but I never push a hand like this or close to this UTG or anything so maybe thats a leak. Im a sally.
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