PL200 6max hand - Flop and Turn decisions

[ipp147]

Ok.

Villain A is newish to the table and appears an ok player. Seen nothing crazy from him. He has $300.

Villain B is an idiot. He calls with very marginal hands but therefore gets lots and lots of actions from people in the wrong spot and his stack is up and down like a yoyo. I am staying until it has gone or he leaves. He has $368.

I have $722.

2 folds and villain B limps. Button folds and the Villain A raises pot in the SB. I call out of the BB with Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. Villain B calls.

3 to the flop ($24)

Flop is A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Villain A checks. I bet pot. Villain B calls - this could be as little as 1 pair. Villain A checkraises pot. At this poing I assume AAxx or AJxx (where xx is possible draw/blockers)

There is now $24 in the middle. My pot. Villain B's call and Villain A's pot reraise so $162.

I have more outs than I can count. Should I raise here or call to induce Villain B to call?

I called. Villain B folded [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]. 3 to the turn ($274).

Turn 4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Villain pushes his last $187. I have picked up a club draw and call.

Any comments?

[RickyG]

Well, your course of action is pretty standard. You have a good wrap against a pretty obvious AA (in my opinion) and a random hand.

The only other way to play it is to reraise the checkraiser, to push out Villain B who may have some outs to chop, and is possibly dumb enough to play anyway, even for the huge raise he is facing. Villain A will call your reraise if he has the AA and probably fold in the rare situations where he has the AJ, which is +ev for you since you are virtually 50-50 against AJ (and pick up 50% of the pot more than your share) and 45-55 against AA.

NOTE: After running some numbers, it seems that if Villain B has something like T q xx or t9xx it can make calling slightly -ev, down to 25% pot equity, which also pushes me toward raising. Also, if the turn doesnt bring a club, your EV decreases by 15-20 percent which could be an issue if villain A had more money.

Of course, if you just call, the turn may pair the board and you can fold without losing any more money.

In the end, I think both choices are correct it's just a matter of how much gamble you have in you. All of Villain A's chips are going in the pot with AA no matter what you do I think since he will have 10 outs on the turn (maybe more to chop) and it pretty pot committed.

Maybe someone else has some differing opinons.

[kipin]

I am never leading out this flop, I think the risk of being check raised is pretty high.

I think checking through is a much better option, although I am sure others will disagree.

[beset7]

[ QUOTE ]
I am never leading out this flop, I think the risk of being check raised is pretty high.

I think checking through is a much better option, although I am sure others will disagree.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is getting check raised here such a bad thing?

[kipin]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I am never leading out this flop, I think the risk of being check raised is pretty high.

I think checking through is a much better option, although I am sure others will disagree.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is getting check raised here such a bad thing?

[/ QUOTE ]

Assuming villain has AAxx and NO redraw you are right around 50%. I think a good percentage of the time villain will have atleast one backdoor draw or redraw so I don't see why getting allin on the flop is desired or necessary.

[RickyG]

[ QUOTE ]
Assuming villain has AAxx and NO redraw you are right around 50%

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this an assumption you can make at this point? All we know of Villain A is that he raised from the small blind into a pot with one limper (that has been identified as a moron). While he is out of position, we cannot assume that because he raised in the small blind he has aces, especially in six max, where players tend to be more agressive. He could have one of a myriad of good starting hands IMO and you have likely made a better connection with the flop than he did.

I believe this is the perfect opportunity for a semibluff, and not necesarily a poor one for a bluff in general. Against two oponents, one that has shown no agression and one that showed passivity after the flop, I think you can successfully bluff quite often. Couple this with the fact that you will rarely be more than a 45/55 dog in this hand, why would you not bet?

To me, checking seems very weak/tight-passive. You MUST play your big draws agressively in omaha, especially 6max to be a successful player.

I would love to hear from more players on this one.

[joewatch]

I think your play is fine. I probably play it the same way most of the time, although checking-calling and check-raising are both reasonable options too. Obviously, I don't mind it getting checked through either.

[ipp147]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Assuming villain has AAxx and NO redraw you are right around 50%

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this an assumption you can make at this point? All we know of Villain A is that he raised from the small blind into a pot with one limper (that has been identified as a moron). While he is out of position, we cannot assume that because he raised in the small blind he has aces, especially in six max, where players tend to be more agressive. He could have one of a myriad of good starting hands IMO and you have likely made a better connection with the flop than he did.

I believe this is the perfect opportunity for a semibluff, and not necesarily a poor one for a bluff in general. Against two oponents, one that has shown no agression and one that showed passivity after the flop, I think you can successfully bluff quite often. Couple this with the fact that you will rarely be more than a 45/55 dog in this hand, why would you not bet?

To me, checking seems very weak/tight-passive. You MUST play your big draws agressively in omaha, especially 6max to be a successful player.

I would love to hear from more players on this one.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi,

I normally bet big draws like this for a couple of reasons. It helps build the pot if I hit the turn. This was the specific reason above. I knew villain B would call and then call again if I hit so I wanted to get the pot bigger. The other reason to bet out draws is to give cover for when I am betting out top/middle set etc.

In this specific case when the SB check raises I can put him on AAxx. If I thought he had it I would have just checked it through. I didn't think he had it when I bet the flop as if he had been paying attention he would have known that villain B would have probably called him down.

Anyway. The river was a 4 and villain scooped the pot. The very next hand he stacked villain B and was sitting on $1000. Villain B left for the evening as did I.

[Tilt]

I think this is all pretty standard. Without the loosey goosey player behind you its a different story but with him adding to the pot I think betting out the flop is essential. Calling his c/r on the flop is perfect to draw in the third player. And caling the turn makes sense as well.