the merits of J 10 preflop

[dlebowski]

I am new to the game and still learning. In reading Abdul Jalib's "Hold'em Preflop Strategy According to Abdul," (at Posev), he essentially has no use for JT as hold cards. His continual remarks are "Fold. Dominated," and another one "Fold, unless you are a fish."

However, Lee Jones - who references Jalib's Posev in his book WLLH, likes JT, suited or not. "Either suited or unsuited, it has some unique properties: it makes the most possible straights, all the straights it makes are the nuts, and when you make a straight with it you often get lots of action."

As I am still learning and trying to learn as much as I can, I would love the board's insight. Thanks, Lebowski

[blackaces13]

Good question. I'm not sure about the answer myself but I think I overvalue the hand as a result of the little write up it gets in WLLHE. Oh boy, it makes 4 straights and they're all the nuts, coooool. But then when you start playing it in LP you realize that those straights almost never come in and other than that its a VERY weak hand.

I'm getting very disillusioned with JTo. I hope others respond because its an interesting hand.

EDIT: Try posting this in some other forums for more responses. I think micro, general, and even poker theory would all be good places for this.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

JTo is a pretty weak hand. Suited it's a little better, but except for being in LP after multiple limpers or in the blinds, it should be folded preflop most of the time.

The "unique characteristic" is, that if you use both cards to make a straight, it's always the nut straight and it makes more nut straights than any other hand.

That, in and of itself, does not make JT a good hand.

[onegymrat]

Without a doubt, JTo has lost me more chips than any other hand.

[Lexander]

My advice is to both fold JTo but beware whenever the board is such that JT will produce the nuts (Q98) since so many people play it.

I think Jones was trying to talk about a single marginal hand that had some value in certain loose-passive games when you have position and flop something solid. But because he discusses this one particular hand for a paragraph people misunderstand and overplay the hand.

After all, what kind of flop are you looking for with JTo? No pair you make is going to be that good. Two pair is good but not great with hands like KQ getting nice draws. If you flop trips you are either dominated or the deck is partially crippled. You have no flush draw.

So basically you are hoping to hit a straight, or hit a boat when somebody hits a flush. Hands like that generally are considered trash hands.

But, JTo does have one redeeming feature that Jones was suggesting. It can make the nuts in a situation where other hands want to keep fighting. The problem I find is that most hands that are better than JTo are going to come in with a raise and JTo is not a hand I want to call any raises with. So it really is hand that needs the right kind of table (too few raises, but lots of staying in).

- Lex

[Hiding]

[ QUOTE ]
Oh boy, it makes 4 straights and they're all the nuts

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah I saw that part and blindly split at least twice, it was early for me, but I'm the same as you, I want to know what the REAL value of JTo is. Its the smallest non-suited connector I ever play and i think it costs me money. I play it like pocket small pairs, fit or fold. If I get the OESD I play on, if not I fold, and i wonder if just folding PF is a better plan?

[sublime]

[ QUOTE ]
JTo is a pretty weak hand. Suited it's a little better, but except for being in LP after multiple limpers or in the blinds, it should be folded preflop most of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

JTs is a pretty good hand, I think saying it should be folded preflop "most of the time" may be a little much.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

If the game is fairly passive, I'll limp from MP with it. In LP, I'll raise first-in or limp after limpers. I really don't like playing it from EP, and I generally don't like entering a pot first unless I raise (though there are exceptions).

Being suited only adds about 7% overall equity to a hand that, when you flop top pair, can be seriously dominated, and when you flop 2 pair is extremely vulnerable to draws.

JTs may be the most over-rated hand in HE. If you never played it outside the blinds and 2 or less off the button after multiple limpers, you would not be giving up very much EV.

[MarkD]

Suitedness does not add 7% equity unless I am misunderstanding what that statement means. I remember a study that Caro did in Card Play (I am pretty sure it was Caro) a few years ago that concluded suitedness adds about 3% more wins to a given hand. 3% is a lot in terms of a poker hand.

I will play JTs and 9Ts UTG in most games and I think I play too tight. I almost never play 9To or JTo though.

[MKR]

If I get the OESD I play on

Beginner's question: what is OESD?

Thanks
MKR