15-30 Hand To Discuss (Long)

[any2cards]

I am in a Canterbury $15-$30 loose-passive must move game.

The BB is a new player who just entered the game. I have never played with him before at Canterbury (rare since I have played there since it opened).

UTG+1 raises. I have watched this player play for about 2 orbits, and he has played 80% of the hands. It is difficult to give value to any of his pre-flop raises, because he has raised (when he raises) with everything from KJo UTG to 97s in the small blind.

UTG+2 cold calls two bets, as does MP player. I have played with both players many times, and they tend to be straight forward in their play, and often willing to gamble.

I am seen as a fairly tight, aggressive player who will change up his game as conditions warrant. I am in the cutoff with the A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Do you fold, call, or raise?

I chose to call.

Everyone folded to the BB who called 1 more bet. The pot contained $160.

The flop was the J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 10 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Everyone checked to me. Do you check or bet? I checked.

The turn was [J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 10 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

The BB bet, UTG+1 folded, UTG+2 folded, MP called. Do you fold, call, or raise? I raised, figuring I may very well win the pot right here. The BB called, and MP folded. The pot now contained $310. We are heads up.

The river was [J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 10 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]] A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

The BB bets. Do you fold, call, or raise? I raised. The BB 3-bet, and I called.

The BB had J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] for a set.

The reason I posted this hand is because for the past few weeks, I have not been running very well. I have had large hands beaten (big pairs, quads to quads, etc.). I am open-minded, however, to the fact that my "running-bad" could potentially be related to recents leaks in my game, or flat out playing-bad.

Without being results oriented, I question my pre-flop call, as it may be better to raise if you play at all.

I especially question my flop check. If I would have bet, it is likely the BB would have raised, with everyone folding to me. In that situation, I would have folded as well. While not winning the pot in either case, I would have saved myself 5 big bets. A key ingridient to improving one's game.

Once I make it to the turn, and then the river, I do not think I could have played this hand any differently, but I am open to suggestions.

Comments/Opinions are welcome.

[ML4L]

Hey any2cards,

Here are my thoughts:

Preflop: Clark recently put up a thread that addresses coldcalling with A5s. From what I remember (I only read some of it), I think that some were strongly in favor of calling and some strongly in favor of folding. I think that, in the situation that you described, I would call.

Flop: An absolute must-bet. Check out another one of Clark's threads ("flop bet") for discussion of a situation slightly similar to this one. The pot is already large and you have a decent hand (which has a fairly good chance of improving on the turn). And, if you had bet out and the BB had check-raised, a fold would have been terrible with the amount of money already in the pot.

Turn: Since you're calling anyway, I think that the raise is fine if you thought that you might take the pot.

River: IMHO, a really poor raise. I think that BB is much more likely to hold a larger two pair or a set (or possibly KQ) than a hand like AK or JT. I don't think that you will win often enough when called, and you must take the possibility of being reraised into account too (against a known opponent, you could probably fold to the 3-bet, but not to a player that you've never seen).

Good hand to post; hope I wasn't too harsh.

ML4L

[Big Dave D]

I think preflop the call is OK, as long as you can get away from a mediocore hand. Its especially good as you would expect to be able to pick up some callers in the blinds.

I think the preflop check is ok. Unlike the other responder, I dont think this is comparable to the Clark example. In the Clark example the pot is bigger, there is a very small chance you are in front, and also a small chance that betting will "clean up" your outs, in that if you make two pair, you will not have wanted middle pins to have stayed. In this example, no one will pass any draw. Its a very draw laden kind of flop.

I think the turn raise is okish...it does smell a bit like the BB was trapping and the MP is calling along, in that case you might have to face three bets (which your BB should have done, imho).

On reflection, Im not sure I like the river raise, although its understandable and feels somewaht natural. The reason I now dont like it is that you have shown a lot of strength on the turn, and yet he still bets into you? He's worried you will check it out.

gl

dd

[Vehn]

You're making a large mistake pot odds wise if you don't call a flop checkraise here after betting the flop.

I would fold preflop almost all of the time. Frankly I think ace rag suited is far overrated.

Were you on 33 or 27? I was on 27 all last night.

[elysium]

hi any
you can raise pre-flop here, but what for? the ev is about the same. sure you can represent something stronger on the flop, but will you want to? you need to flop so calling is the ev thing to do here.

the big issue any is the thinking on the flop. you have to realize that if it were one bet to you and you knew that raising would knock out everyone except the bettor, you should still raise even if you also thought that you might get reraised. if i'm reading you right here, you would fold if your only option was raising under those conditions. but you should raise even if it means that calling will allow many in and raising will get you heads up against a possible reraiser. why? because raising gives your ace the best possibility of standing up if you make a pair by the river; in this case you'd love to raise since it would give you two pair. and that's right; even if you didn't have a small pair to go along with your draw, you should still raise to give your ace the best possible chance. if everyone or a few call and you fail to get heads up, you have a nut draw so you don't mind that either. you've got a powerful holding any, and you should max it on the flop. also, your so strong, you want to tie your opponents to the flop.

the river is fine. oh wait a minute.....i'm just noticing that you didn't have a draw on the flop. you picked it up on the turn. bet and if it were one bet to you, call. on the flop you like the multi-way. i'm going to leave the thread as is though for those times you have an A high flush draw and are indecisive about raising because you are worried that you'll scare out. don't worry about it. raise for the reasons listed.

[any2cards]

First, I appreciate your response and thoughts. I do disagree, but I will try to explain constructively [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

After thinkning about this hand all day, I am leaning far more towards folding this pre-flop than playing. I am not trying to allow the outcome to influence me; rather, I believe I would just as soon avoid tough decisions such as this altogether.

I guess, and much of this is based on playing at Canterbury, I just don't think of a pot with 10 2/3 small bets as big. If I bet the flop, and the BB raised (as I suspected he would have), and everyone folded to me, the pot would be laying me $205 to $15 to call or 13.67 to 1. While this is signigicant, I also don't have much of a draw at this point. If I assume that all the BB has is a big J, this is enough. If, however, the BB already has two pair, two pair with AJ, or even a set, then I am virtually dead. I guess I just wouldn't make this call here, and perhaps, that is part of the problem with my game.

You also stated that the raise on the river was poor. Again, I have to disagree. Despite what I stated above, it is more likely that the BB has some J (not specifically AJ as I already have a A, and one falls on the river), or perhaps two pair. In addition, the way things usually go at Canterbury is that if someone is open ended on the flop, or four-flushed, they inevitably bet out the flop. I really didn't put BB on a hand like KQ, Q9, or 98. I realize that this is more information than I gave you; I am just trying to take advantage of what I have seen for 3 years in this card room. Given that, when I do get there on the river, I think that in the long run, I will make money on the raise, because I believe that I will be called by virtually any BB that has any form of J.

I was actually surpised that I was re-raised on the river by the BB, because from my perspective (given that I called 2 bets pre-flop) and could be concerned about a potential big hand by UTG+1, I could easily have had a hand like KQ and *not* have bet the flop.

[any2cards]

Dave, you stated that you thought the pre-flop call was okay as long as I can get away from a mediocre hand. Would you consider what flopped a mediocre hand? In other words, if UTG+1 had bet out, would you have called? I suspect not, as I would not have called. Is this wrong? In that circumstance, the pot would be laying $175-$15 to call or 11.67 to 1.

I am interested in hearing your thoughts on what made you think that the BB was trapping? I realize that this is what the ultimate result was, but given how things flowed pre-flop and post-flop, what would have warned you that this was the case?

When I raised the turn, I truly felt, given the betting, that there was a very good chance that I could win right there; further, even if I didn't, I "read" the players that my outs were any club on the river, even if it paired the board, any 5, or any A. I thought that this provided me 14 outs to improvde if I was called. That is why I raised. Perhaps this is not enough, perhaps this thinking is flawed, and for that reason, I have a major leak in my game.

As for the river raise, I replied to a previous poster that I just felt that the BB would have bet out any form of open ended straight on the flop. Since he didn't, and I accounted for a second A, I just didn't think he had a bigger two pair, and since I wasn't reraised on the turn, I didn't feel he had a set. Further, the BB could have thought that I was raising on the turn with a four flush, given no betting on the flop, and wanted to make sure that a bet would occur if anyone would call with any lesser pair.

For that reason, I raised. Perhaps this also is falacious thinking in the long run, and another leak in my game. I just don't know.

[any2cards]

Is this mistake really as large as you state? If I would have bet the flop, and the BB raised, and everyone else folded as I suspected would have occurred, the pot would be laying me 13.67 to 1.

If I assume that all the BB has is a J, that overlay would be significant. If, however, the BB already had two pair or a set, I don't think you can call.

Now, having said that, you can't be sure what the BB has. So, are you saying that given all of the possibilities, this overlay is more than sufficient for the times that you will win when you hit your hand again? I just would not believe that A5 (a pair of 5s on the flop) would win unimproved.

As I stated to someone else above, I spent a bunch of time thinking about this hand today, and I agree that I am far more likely to fold this hand pre-flop in the future in similar situations, if only to avoid such tough decisions when I am slightly improved on the flop.

I started on 33 where this hand occurred. I then moved to 27. I played from 10:00 pm to 4:00 am. Ultimately, on 27, I was in the 9 seat. My name is Will.

Since I have seen you post many times here, and I know you play both $15-$30 and $30-$60, I would appreciate knowing who you were on 27, if for no other reason than to talk during the game when I spend most of the time folding [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[Vehn]

I think you're thinking about the (potential) flop checkraise the wrong way. Most of the time if you get checkraised here you will have 5 clean outs in addition to your backdoor flush. You have to call.

I was in the 3 seat until 11:30pm, late 20s, blue sweatshirt, badly in need of a shave. Say hi some time.

[any2cards]

Chris ...

I appreciate your feedback. I am going to have to noodle on this some before I respond.

I must have missed you at 27, since the first seat I was in was seat 3. I must have been moved to this seat when you got up to leave. There, I still don't know what you look like.

If you know who I am, make sure to say hi. I always enjoy meeting someone who can improve my game [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]