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  #1  
Old 12-29-2005, 10:22 AM
mike_sharpe mike_sharpe is offline
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Default Hypothetical protect hand question: raise, cold call or fold?

Let's say you are on button with KQs. Two limpers to you, MP and CO call, you raise, both blinds and the two limpers call.

10 small bets in pot.

Flop: T 9 2 rainbow, but one of your suit is on the flop. So, you have two over cards, a gutshot and a back door flush for approx 8.5 outs.

Both blinds check, MP bets, CO raises. What is your line? There is now 13 small bets in the pot, costs 2 to call. 6.5:1

I know it is an easy raise if the flop wasn't already raised. Can you be confident that you really have 8.5 outs here? Do you cold call the two bets here? Raise to try and knock out the blinds and then call a cap? Fold?

I guess it would be read dependant. What if you are new to the table and have no reads other than it seems to be a typical low limit table? What do you do and why?

What if after you 3-bet, both the MP and CO just call and check to you on turn. What do you do if the turn is a brick and you don't improve to a flush draw? If it is checked to you, do you go for the free card? I think I would take free card in this situation. However, if I improved to a flush draw, I'd bet the turn. Free card play too weak? You got to figure that at least one of the other two caught a piece of the flop.

Just some hypothetical questions I thought of while reading the Protect Your Hand section of SSHE. I don't remember anything in there regarding a raised pot to you on the flop.
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  #2  
Old 12-29-2005, 10:30 AM
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Default Re: Hypothetical protect hand question: raise, cold call or fold?

I feel like a raise would be for a free card and nothing else, and since we cannot be sure of that I don't think I like a raise personally.

I would just call getting the correct odds, and if we just call then it's very likely we will be bet into on the turn, and that's perfect if we hit a K, Q or J because then we'll raise.
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  #3  
Old 12-29-2005, 10:31 AM
Nick Royale Nick Royale is offline
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Default Re: Hypothetical protect hand question: raise, cold call or fold?

[ QUOTE ]
Can you be confident that you really have 8.5 outs here?

[/ QUOTE ]
You don't need 8.5 outs here, you don't even need 6 outs and with 4 outs to the nuts you can't fold here, so I guess the decision goes between 3-betting or calling. The benefits of a 3-bet would be to possibly get a freecard and buy outs against hands such as Q9 and KJ. I think i prefer a 3-bet here, but I'm not sure.

However, if I'm offered a free card on the turn without improving to a straight or pair i would take it. Betting seems terrible to me.
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  #4  
Old 12-29-2005, 10:37 AM
Nick Royale Nick Royale is offline
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Default Re: Hypothetical protect hand question: raise, cold call or fold?

[ QUOTE ]
I feel like a raise would be for a free card and nothing else

[/ QUOTE ]
Buying outs in a big pot must also be a positive thing that can come out of 3-betting, but I can't tell you I'm sure what option is best.
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  #5  
Old 12-29-2005, 10:38 AM
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Default Re: Hypothetical protect hand question: raise, cold call or fold?

Congratulations to your 3000th post [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
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  #6  
Old 12-29-2005, 10:39 AM
MrEngenic MrEngenic is offline
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Default Re: Hypothetical protect hand question: raise, cold call or fold?

I like a 3bet for a free card.
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  #7  
Old 12-29-2005, 12:41 PM
Dagger78 Dagger78 is offline
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Default Re: Hypothetical protect hand question: raise, cold call or fold?

At a typical passive low limit table I'd 3-bet here and take the free card on the turn about 100% of the time. They won't be folding, no reason to put money in on the turn if you don't have too.
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  #8  
Old 12-29-2005, 07:07 PM
7stud 7stud is offline
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Default Re: Hypothetical protect hand question: raise, cold call or fold?

[ QUOTE ]
I know it is an easy raise if the flop wasn't already raised.

[/ QUOTE ]

I ask this question as a beginning SSHE player: how do you know this? My thinking is that if you have 8.5 outs, then it’s approximately 5:1 against hitting one of your outs on the next card. Since your raise can be matched by at most two opponents, you will get a maximum of 2:1 on your raise. Getting 2:1 on your raise when it's 5:1 against hitting one of your outs seems undesirable to me.

[ QUOTE ]
Just some hypothetical questions I thought of while reading the Protect Your Hand section of SSHE.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don’t think that section applies. On p.153, it says,

[ QUOTE ]
The most costly error that you can make is to fold a hand that has a strong chance to win a large pot….Another error is almost as costly…The error is failing to protect strong hands in large, multiway pots.

[/ QUOTE ]

What strong hand did you have that you need to protect? It seems plain to me that you have a drawing hand, and your goal should be to continue as cheaply as possible if the pot odds are there. One of your opponents with a made hand needs to worry about protecting their hand from the likes of you.

[ QUOTE ]
I don't remember anything in there regarding a raised pot to you on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
A raised pot can either help you are hurt you when you are trying to protect your hand. If the raise comes from your left, then the players between the raiser and you will only have to call one bet, and the pot odds will most likely be there to justify a call in a large pot. However, if the raiser is to your right, then you can reraise to protect your hand, and the players to your left will face a double bet, cutting their pot odds in half, which may make folding correct.
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  #9  
Old 12-29-2005, 07:28 PM
Nick Royale Nick Royale is offline
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Default Re: Hypothetical protect hand question: raise, cold call or fold?

[ QUOTE ]
What strong hand did you have that you need to protect? It seems plain to me that you have a drawing hand, and your goal should be to continue as cheaply as possible if the pot odds are there. One of your opponents with a made hand needs to worry about protecting their hand from the likes of you.

[/ QUOTE ]
The raise is rather a way of buying outs and getting a freecard. And our equity isn't that bad, if we're having 8.5 outs the chance that we'll improve to the best hand by the river is almost 2:1.
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  #10  
Old 12-30-2005, 03:32 AM
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Default Re: Hypothetical protect hand question: raise, cold call or fold?

Raise and take a free card, if you get it. Folding would be horrible. The pot odds of 6.5-1 are not what you should be thinking about here, especially since you will get at least one call behind you. The implied odds if you hit the ISD or flush are very good, and you may get MP to make an incorrect fold on the flop.
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