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  #1  
Old 12-18-2005, 11:08 AM
POKhER POKhER is offline
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Default Free card play - Do we use it enough? Dicussion.

I guess this is more a beginners post or micro post, but i think it may generate better discussion here and is relevent to shorthanded as well as full ring.

Ok, So speaking to a few people over AIM/MSN and seeing hands on this forum it seems many people neglect the use of free card play.

I've had discussions on AIM and MSN and they've had similar discussions with their contacts.

So i think its time for everyone to get chatting about it and apply it more after all... a free card is saving us money and thats definatly going to increase our winrate.


So heres an example,

<font color="red">Read Now we've got a read on CO, he plays any two cards giving him a wide range and will bet any pair. he may have Jacks 4's or 7's, maybe 2pair.. a set... its very wide.</font>

I've had to add some posters to get some money in the pot to make this example useable. I could have just said bill gates throws some chips on the table... Its to reduce the varibles so we're focused on the Freecard play as opposed to arguing over the preflop raising and folding affecting CO's hands or "The Bunching Effect" and whatever else.

Hero on button with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (6 handed)
UTG Posts, UTG1Posts, CO calls,<font color="red">Hero Raises</font>, SB folds,BB folds, UTG folds, UTG1 folds, CO Calls.

Flop:<font color="green">7.5SB</font> 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img](2 Players)
<font color="red">Loose passive bets...</font>



Outs, Odds and why we're continuing
7.5:1 we assume all our outs are clean agreed? thats 6 outs requiring 7:1 or so.

This is a great time for a free card play no? i checked the lines.




Free card line FLOP<font color="green"> 7.5SB</font>
<font color="red">LPP bet</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises</font>, LPP calls.

Turn:<font color="green">5.75BB(11.5SB)</font> 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
LLP checks, Hero(we) check.

River:
We got to the river for 2SB(1BB).



NON-Free card line FLOP<font color="green"> 7.5SB</font>
<font color="red">LPP bets</font>, We call.

Turn: 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="green"> 5.25BB(10.5SB)</font>
<font color="red">LPP bets</font>, We...

Well now we're to the turn, we have 6outs still and get 6.25:1 on our call. We need atleast 6.7:1 and may be tempted to fold(However we do have implied odds of 1BB-2BB we may get on the river if he doesn't wimp out).


It seems in this example, no only has the free card play saved us bets and got us to the river. Its potentially saved us giving up a pot on the turn that we may do.

If we factor in rake, the pot will be reduced in both examples.

<font color="red">However had we continued</font>,the river would have cost us 1SB on the flop + 1BB on the turn.

Thats 1.5BB taking the pot to 7.25BB(3SB Post flop investment) without the free card play as opposed to 5.25(2SB Post flop investment) when we did use it.

Of course we'll often miss, so the final pot size is fairly irrelevant but we will be paying to see the turn and river often so this is the main worry.

Discussion

As for a discussion, can some of you guys help me out and post some hands where you used the free card play against a passive predictable villan.

Maybe then we can pick apart a real hand history that has rake factored in to see the results of not using this concept.

Do you use it enough in your game?
Would you have used it in this example?

Don't need to post here with the answers to the above but if its NO then maybe applying it to your game will increase your winrate.
0.5SB over XXXX number of hands will ammountup.

Of course i've no idea how often a free card situation comes up, but 1SB saved is 1SB gained...(Not in the weak tight sense of folding though [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img])

P.s. This example may be floored, i've checked it but i'm sure i've overlooked some elements of this hand aswell as things such as equity. However i've reduced the varibles by assuming our outs are clean as the arguement over outs is not what this post is made for.
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  #2  
Old 12-18-2005, 02:34 PM
philnewall philnewall is offline
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Default Re: Free card play - Do we use it enough? Dicussion.

I agree in your hand that raising is definetly better than calling. Loose passives are the best sort of opponent to use the free card play against.

In this hand I would play it differently. The trouble with going for the free turn with the flop raise is that very often the opponent is going to donk the turn aswell destroying your play. I prefer to flat call the flop with the option of raising the turn. Sure it's a bit more expensive but there are lots of benefits.

I don't like using the free card play with an obvious draw against TAGs as your hand is so very very readable. I prefer to pump it and just force a fold.
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  #3  
Old 12-18-2005, 02:58 PM
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Default Re: Free card play - Do we use it enough? Dicussion.

You are getting in money with a draw, it is good if your opponent never bets the turn but you also lose value when you hit your overs.

I would rather get bet into on the turn when I hit my overs and can raise, putting 2BB in the pot with huge equity. You are getting money in on the flop as an underdog in more cases than not.

True
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  #4  
Old 12-18-2005, 03:43 PM
Stealthy Stealthy is offline
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Default Re: Free card play - Do we use it enough? Dicussion.

Players are so aware of the free play now that you have to pick your opponents carefully. Also given that 2 overcards presents a very weak draw this may not be the best place to do it. Here are the risks of raising HU with just overs IMO.

1. Your draw is weak and you could be drawing pretty thin if reverse dominated or against a set.

2. A lot of players will either 3 bet you or lead the turn and your cheap turn card has actually cost you extra.

3. Even 2 SB for a weak draw may be too high a price.

In Jason Pohls shorthanded guide which many of you may have read he does a big study on playing overcards when bet into and did a ton of math on it. He came to the conclusion that even peeling was slightly -EV and peeling against 2 players was a big -EV! He also determined that a raise was better than a call only if it was almost certain to work as if led into again the raise became a big loser.

His final analysis which was very detailed and complete, was that you had to be very sure to even call the flop against a donk from EP as a pre-flop raisor. I.e. a good read that all your outs are likely to be good. If you raised with KQ and the board is 7, 4, 9 then if you call a bet from a player holding Q4 then you are making a big -EV call.

Against a high VP$IP player you are a lot safer as the chances of your outs being clean improve dramatically. In this situation and if your are almost certain that a free card play will work then a raise is more profitable than just a call.

A bit of a jumbled reply as I moved from my own thoughts to that of a strong player. The whole overcard dilemma is so read orientated as it depends greatly on whther your opponent would donk with air or only a made hand and also what their hand range is.

Jason Pohl advocates in the end that a simple fold on the flop is usually better than calling or raising. I do still peal myself but only raise if I suspect my opponent is betting with air.
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  #5  
Old 12-18-2005, 04:19 PM
POKhER POKhER is offline
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Default Re: Free card play - Do we use it enough? Dicussion.

For anyone wondering where the Jason pohl article can be found its here:

http://www.pokerpages.com/articles/a...index.htm#pohl

Having read that article, it sure puts up a good arguement.

Would be silly to take the idea of "im folding all my overcards" as its situation specific as is most poker hands. However, the free card play is profitable in the first example

Quote direct from article(1st half):
[ QUOTE ]
The ability to take a free card makes the button's hand three times more profitable than a call alone.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice one Stealthy! Good article, going to read some more of these.
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  #6  
Old 12-18-2005, 04:39 PM
TomBrooks TomBrooks is offline
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Default Re: Free card play - Do we use it enough? Dicussion.

I think the free card play is generally less valuable in Shorthand than in Full Ring because I think you usually have more fold equity semibluffing against fewer opponents and you will actually be ahead more often in SH than FR with a mediocre holding or overcards.

I find myself taking less free cards, although I certainly do on occassion.
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  #7  
Old 12-18-2005, 04:40 PM
PantherZ PantherZ is offline
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Default Re: Free card play - Do we use it enough? Dicussion.

[ QUOTE ]
Jason Pohl advocates in the end that a simple fold on the flop is usually better than calling or raising.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's close, but I don't want the rest of the table see me fold for one bet on the flop heads-up after raising. For that reason, I usually peel. Sometimes I'll raise. When I've got AA or KK, I often flat call the donk bet on the flop, then pop them on the turn. This seems to be an effective balancing strategy.
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  #8  
Old 12-18-2005, 05:01 PM
POKhER POKhER is offline
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Default Re: Free card play - Do we use it enough? Dicussion.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Jason Pohl advocates in the end that a simple fold on the flop is usually better than calling or raising.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's close, but I don't want the rest of the table see me fold for one bet on the flop heads-up after raising. For that reason, I usually peel. Sometimes I'll raise. When I've got AA or KK, I often flat call the donk bet on the flop, then pop them on the turn. This seems to be an effective balancing strategy.

[/ QUOTE ]

This come in more at higher stakes as jason pohl says and im sure many of us are aware... The lower stakes players(some 3/6 5/10 players here to and higher up) are surfing web/chatting on aim and unless involved the hand miss these things.

If you peel "because you want a strong image" as such, it's not worth the SB it costs you, you're probably better off finding the fold button rather than making a -EV decision for "table image" reasons. Just be aware of some players taking more shots at you.

i think you'll have OC's way more often that AA/KK so this "balancing" is infact a pleasent thought but not a reality.

This is ofcourse assuming that 1 in 20 guys actually notes it down or remembers it... and that the guy actually uses the information.

Dont mean to nit pick [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] i definatly see where your coming from with that post mate.

POKhER
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  #9  
Old 12-18-2005, 07:08 PM
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Default Re: Free card play - Do we use it enough? Dicussion.

It may seem like we don't use it as much because SH pots aren't usually multiway. Free card plays work well when you have no fold equity and probably have to improve to win, like if the pot is 5-way and everyone called your flop raise and you have a flush draw.

Since most hands we play are HU or 3-way, we often have some fold equity, so it often makes it worthwhile to fire again on the turn in hopes of picking up the pot without making our hand. Also, when they see that we bet the whole way with a draw, we generate action when we do have a hand.
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  #10  
Old 12-18-2005, 07:10 PM
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Default Re: Free card play - Do we use it enough? Dicussion.

[ QUOTE ]
It may seem like we don't use it as much because SH pots aren't usually multiway. Free card plays work well when you have no fold equity and probably have to improve to win, like if the pot is 5-way and everyone called your flop raise and you have a flush draw.

Since most hands we play are HU or 3-way, we often have some fold equity, so it often makes it worthwhile to fire again on the turn in hopes of picking up the pot without making our hand. Also, when they see that we bet the whole way with a draw, we generate action when we do have a hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Love this, very good post.
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