A stop-and-go hand that actually worked

[UMTerp]

All I said was that a stop and go was better than a push preflop.

[zambonidrivr]

this is a correct statement. this stop and go should not have worked. the only thing you should have gotten out of this hand was a note on villian.

[ QUOTE ]
I think the problem here is that Hero didn't have a big enough stack to effectively stop and go. Any reasonable Villain almost has to call at this point. Stop and go works better when you really have some FE and can at least give the Villain bad odds to make a hand if he whiffs on the flop. Here, even with the stop and go, the Villain is still getting 3:1.

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You are assuming every player knows basic pot odds. That isnt true. "Most" opponents say "Well, my hand didnt hit, he went all-in, I got to fold".

Of course I noticed. I think most players wouldn't have folded in Villain's place. But I've seen this work, and there's no reason it can't. Wouldn't make a habit of it. It's very situational and read dependent. Given this situation, it might well have been your best option. I'll concede that you probably have a slightly better chance of getting Villain to fold with the stop and go than you would have with a straight preflop push...but I think that 90% of the time you commit to the hand by calling the preflop raise, you're not getting out of the hand without ending up all-in and called.

I'll try to guess at some hypothetical numbers, at work right now so I can't run anything really accurate.

Push preflop:
40% win if called (gain t4500)
5% chance Villain folds (gain t2400)
55% lose if called (eliminated)

Stop and go:
30% to win if called (gain t4500)
10% Villain folds (gain t2400)
60% lose if called (eliminated)

Maybe I'm underestimating the chance of the villain folding on the stop and go or overestimating the villain folding preflop. He'd have to be on a total steal with a trash hand to fold preflop. Which he might have been, given his fold on the flop.

Obviously the numbers are hypotheticals, maybe someone who has could do something more concrete, but that feels reasonable to me.

[elmitchbo]

i totally disagree. i think this is about as ideal a situation as you can get for a stop-n-go. one important thing to remember here is that the stop-n-go is a desperation type of play. it's not really supposed to work that often. the same thing can be said for pushing any 2 with a short stack.... it's far from an ideal situation.

the OP's line gets him maximum value on his hand if it works. i think when you need to make up some ground a high reward move for the same amount of risk is the best play. when you get short stacked the risk of any play is the same, the pay off if your move is succesful is what really needs to be the deciding factor.

as far as the fold goes.... 3:1 odds facing an all-in that will cost you 25% of your stack when you have absolutely nothing? i can't say that's an automatic call. that's the point of the stop-n-go... to give your opponent a chance to have zilch on the flop so he can fold.

[nsj]

pushing this preflop is ridiculous, it guarantees a call from standard raising hands, all of which are ahead of TJo preflop.

your stack looks a little too shallow for a stop/go to me here, but it worked out. Fold preflop is fine as well.

[jcm4ccc]

Just finished in 2nd place in the tournament in which this hand occurred. $2100. My biggest payday yet. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Congrats and well done!

[Rizen]

[ QUOTE ]
All I said was that a stop and go was better than a push preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, it's MUCH better. With your push you have 0 fold equity, you will ALWAYS be called. If you stop n go, even if the villian calls you 99 times out of 100 (since hero is short, he WILL get called often by a reasonable player) you have gained. If you gain an ounce of fold equity with the stop n go, you have gained.

So what if this stop n go fails 99 times out of 100?? Maybe 9,999,999 times out of 10,000,000?? Even if so, you have still gained from the stop n go, even if the gain is slight.

By the fundamental theorum of poker, any time our opponent makes a mistake, you gain. Give your opponent that opportunity.

-Rizen

[KneeCo]

I'm with Rizen, once we've conceded that the Hero had 0 FE pf (which I think is clear in this case), this must be a fold or stop and go situation, we can debate which of those two it is, but I can't see how pushing pre-flop is better than the stop and go.

I can't think of one advantage of pushing pf over the stop and go, can anyone else?