Raising for free cards/ buying outs with draws PLO...

[bholdr]

A situation that i seem to run into a lot- i'm trying to figure out when/if it's appropriate to raise the flop when in position to try for a free card on the turn and/or protect my draws/buy outs... my hold 'em skills don't seem to translate well:

Hypothetical example:

assuming 100BB sacks and half-decent(non-donk) opponents: In an unraised pot with 3-5 players to the flop, you pick up a decent straight draw with a non-nut flush draw- say 15 outs IF they're all good (unlikely). you're in position.

There is a pot-size bet in front of you and a caller. you think your equity at this point is likely about even with the villains'. pot is around 15-20BBs and you:


-fold, don't draw to non-nuts?
-call and draw cheaply?
-raise a bit to take control, maybe get a free card?
-raise a lot/pot it to try to force out draws that dominate yours, maybe buy the pot right there, and/or get a free card?
-what about non flush or straight draws, like a set of fives on a 456 flop? would any of these apply?

In a NLHE game, a reasonable raise with a draw would be my standard play, going for the free card, primarily, but also to disguise my hand if i hit the turn, maybe buy it right there- protecting/buying outs doesn't really factor into this descision often in HE.

...but this is PLO, and i am confused. the chance of the top set (nuts-for-now) being out there, or a bigger, better, nuttier S or F draw leads me to fear re-raises. With a flat call, though, one could be letting a naked nut flush draw in (which may fold to a raise), counterfeiting some outs.

so:

what situations, opponents, reads, etc, would make one of those plays superior to the others?

I've been turning this one over in my head a lot, it's been one of the most challenging spots as i learn PLO... some of my speculations: for example, if, instead of 100BB stacks, it was really deep... i'd think making the big riase would be worth it more often, given that i'd have enough to continue to make meaningful bets, the raise wouldn't kill the implied odds, and so on. Against solid opponents, just call and wait to see what hapens. Against weak/ loose players, i might want to fold.. that nut flush draw isn't going anywhere... i want the nuts against donks, right?

hmmmm.... Thoughts? am i missing applicable PL or omaha specific concepts?

[beset7]

I think a solid reply to your post would probably be an entire poker book. Have you read the three PLO classics yet (PL/NL by caffione/rueben, Omaha Hold Em Poker by Caffione and How Good is Your PLO by Rueben)?

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assuming 100BB sacks and half-decent(non-donk) opponents: In an unraised pot with 3-5 players to the flop, you pick up a decent straight draw with a non-nut flush draw- say 15 outs IF they're all good (unlikely). you're in position.

There is a pot-size bet in front of you and a caller. you think your equity at this point is likely about even with the villains'. pot is around 15-20BBs and you:


-fold, don't draw to non-nuts?

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Depends on how "non-donk" the player is. But I'm not a nut peddler so folding is going to be down on the list a ways depending on the opponent. Omaha player pool is small enough you can actually get to know these guys.

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-call and draw cheaply?

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Problem with this is that when the obvious draws get there lots of these guys are weak tight and will not pay you off where as they will call a raise here.

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-raise a bit to take control, maybe get a free card?

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This is a good option. Just make sure you are consistent or consistently inconsistent. You'll have to raise a bit sometimes with top set, a massive draw or total air. Either that or randomize your bets. I have a pair of dice next to my keyboard and I often use them to decide how big I"m going to raise in position with the nuts, draws or nada.

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-raise a lot/pot it to try to force out draws that dominate yours, maybe buy the pot right there, and/or get a free card?

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This is a bit more my style. How much variance can you handle?

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-what about non flush or straight draws, like a set of fives on a 456 flop? would any of these apply?

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This is incredibly player dependent. Also, it's important, for me, to be aware of how I have been playing. Manipulating your opponents perceptions of your hand-range versus decent players is a prerequisite to a healthy win rate.

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I've been turning this one over in my head a lot, it's been one of the most challenging spots as i learn PLO... some of my speculations: for example, if, instead of 100BB stacks, it was really deep... i'd think making the big riase would be worth it more often, given that i'd have enough to continue to make meaningful bets, the raise wouldn't kill the implied odds, and so on. Against solid opponents, just call and wait to see what hapens. Against weak/ loose players, i might want to fold.. that nut flush draw isn't going anywhere... i want the nuts against donks, right?

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versus donks nut peddling is going to be pretty profitable though not optimal. There are different opinions on this but versus bad/predictable players with 100xbb stacks there isn't as much room to work with the more marginal hands. But all the big winners I know at any level of PLO have no problem pushing small 55/45 edges, making EV neutral plays to get action later, raising with non-nut draws, middle/bottom set etc. It all depends on how well you know your opponents. And, as inevitably happens, the stacks get deepish and you'll need to adjust accordingly.

One thing about PLO that struck me as I was first learning (still learning) is how divergent styles can often be more or less equally successful. I might have my opinions about what optimal play looks like under certain table conditions but then I see players playing very different styles from mine winning at a healthy clip. It's more important, I believe, to know your opponents and know what they are likely to think of you based on how you've been playing then to play any certain fixed style.

My two cents. Not sure if this helps.

[TheRempel]

-fold, don't draw to non-nuts?

That is an option and generally the line I will take if I know people will call big bets with OE Straight Draws, nut or second nut flush draws, or small wraps on a 2 flush board.

-call and draw cheaply?

I think this is almost always the wrong line to take. You'll end up sharing a bunch of split pots or having tough decisions to make when you flush card comes.

-raise a bit to take control, maybe get a free card?

I'm not generally fond of raising 'a bit' unless the situation dictates it. Generally I want to raise enough on the flop to make my opponent face a tough decision on the turn if they choose to call.

-raise a lot/pot it to try to force out draws that dominate yours, maybe buy the pot right there, and/or get a free card?

Against the vast majority of players, this is the right move. If you are in a situation where you have a 16+ out draw against a player you believe to have a set, and they will fold bottom or middle set even 10% of the time to your raise, you will make money raising there in the long run. If you know that they will reraise no matter what or that other players will call with weaker draws to stronger hands, then generally you should fold since your ev will be neutral or negative.

-what about non flush or straight draws, like a set of fives on a 456 flop? would any of these apply?

It's fairly opponent dependant. I like raising for disinformation against TAG players since a fair amount of them will not reraise the flop without a great redraw but will not fold either and I will often get a free card on the turn or they will choose the wrong time to represent a boat against my supposed straight.

Against a super LAG player, there is often an argument for raising a set on a three card straight flop since their range of potting hands is so huge, you are likely ahead and have outs if you aren't.

[bholdr]

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-call and draw cheaply?

I think this is almost always the wrong line to take. You'll end up sharing a bunch of split pots or having tough decisions to make when you flush card comes.

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aggreed... kinda one of those "when calling cannot be correct" situations.


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-raise a lot/pot it to try to force out draws that dominate yours, maybe buy the pot right there, and/or get a free card?

Against the vast majority of players, this is the right move. If you are in a situation where you have a 16+ out draw against a player you believe to have a set, and they will fold bottom or middle set even 10% of the time to your raise, you will make money raising there in the long run. If you know that they will reraise no matter what or that other players will call with weaker draws to stronger hands, then generally you should fold since your ev will be neutral or negative.

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I also aggree with this assesmanet, but oe has to be willing to fold to a re-potting by a solid opponent- they could have all your draws dominated, leaving you with very few safe outs and a couple counterfeited outs that'll cost A LOT when they come... like if a guy had top set WITH a nut flush draw, and you raise with a non-nut draw and wrap to try to isolate a set... intresting stuff. ty

[Big Dave D]

Beset hit the nail right on the head here. Lots of styles work. To say this is a never call situtation is insane. This is only the case if you don't want to have to think on the turn. THe problem with going beserk with a 15 outer is that you are still a dog to trips. If he reraises you back, in most games online, you are getting pot committed or are allin if you call.

I'm not saying I dont raise here...just that its player dependent and calling can be good too.

Additional thought, if the overcaller is a good player, then raising may very well mean that you end up drawing to your striaght only.

gl

dd