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#21
11-03-2005, 01:58 PM
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Re: very shorthanded preflop standards
I was mainly commenting on the posts that advocated a 30+% PFR. There are very few situations where this can possibly be profitable, and even if you manage to find one it doesn't take long for even the worst opponents to adjust for the better to make it incorrect again.
Schneids is right, there are a lot more "it depends" situations the shorter the table gets. Most players in these games will play far too loose both pre and post flop making most steals unsuccessful. The lower end of the spectrum of stealing hands for 6 max become much more difficult to play because people are defending and calling down more often. I seem to have lost my train of thought, but I am glad this thread is getting some serious discussion. 
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#22
11-03-2005, 02:02 PM
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Re: very shorthanded preflop standards
[ QUOTE ]
You have much less fold equity three handed than you do after three folds in a 6 handed game, you need more value to raise [/ QUOTE ] This is spot on, and I must have skipped over it on my first read through. Just about everyone else though was advocating what would amount to 30+% preflop raising which is just ludicrous.
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#23
11-03-2005, 03:25 PM
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Re: very shorthanded preflop standards
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Why would you be able to play more hands for a profit in a 3-4 handed game as opposed to a 6 handed game with 2-3 folds in front of you? [/ QUOTE ] Playing constantly 3-4 handed is very different from 6max play. [/ QUOTE ] Why? [ QUOTE ] Good 6max play is weak-tight play 3-4 handed. [/ QUOTE ] No. If you are playing correctly 3 or 4 handed and then playing differently after 2 or 3 folds in 6-max against the same players, you are playing incorrectly in 6-max. [ QUOTE ] Many 6max players just cannot adjust to shorter tables. [/ QUOTE ] I'm sure that's true of people that don't know how to play 6-max to begin with.
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#24
11-03-2005, 03:30 PM
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Re: very shorthanded preflop standards
[ QUOTE ]
I think if I were to try to make a chart for 3-4 handed playing standards it'd be almost impossible. Sometimes I raise K7o UTG, sometimes I fold it. Sometimes T8o is raised. Sometimes 97s is raised. Sometimes I am 3 betting from the button wtih J9o. It's such a give and take game that every situation feels like there's a different correct decision based on how the table is playing. [/ QUOTE ] Why shouldn't you be taking that into consideration at a 6 handed game after 2 folds? [ QUOTE ] I will say though, that you can probably play a few more hands than most people are saying to play. [/ QUOTE ] I'm sure that's true, but why shouldn't you also play those hands after 2 or 3 folds 6 handed?
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#25
11-03-2005, 03:34 PM
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Re: very shorthanded preflop standards
[ QUOTE ]
Why shouldn't you be taking that into consideration at a 6 handed game after 2 folds? [/ QUOTE ] Who says I'm not? [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] I will say though, that you can probably play a few more hands than most people are saying to play. [/ QUOTE ] I'm sure that's true, but why shouldn't you also play those hands after 2 or 3 folds 6 handed? [/ QUOTE ] Who says I'm not?
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#26
11-03-2005, 03:46 PM
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Re: very shorthanded preflop standards
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] You have much less fold equity three handed than you do after three folds in a 6 handed game, you need more value to raise [/ QUOTE ] This is spot on, and I must have skipped over it on my first read through. Just about everyone else though was advocating what would amount to 30+% preflop raising which is just ludicrous. [/ QUOTE ] I'm not advocating any particular PFR number. I certainly don't raise 30% of hands from the CO and button 4 handed.
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#27
11-03-2005, 03:47 PM
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Re: very shorthanded preflop standards
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Why shouldn't you be taking that into consideration at a 6 handed game after 2 folds? [/ QUOTE ] Who says I'm not? [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] I will say though, that you can probably play a few more hands than most people are saying to play. [/ QUOTE ] I'm sure that's true, but why shouldn't you also play those hands after 2 or 3 folds 6 handed? [/ QUOTE ] Who says I'm not? [/ QUOTE ] Then I guess we agree.
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#28
11-03-2005, 05:48 PM
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Re: very shorthanded preflop standards
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Why would you be able to play more hands for a profit in a 3-4 handed game as opposed to a 6 handed game with 2-3 folds in front of you? [/ QUOTE ] Playing constantly 3-4 handed is very different from 6max play. [/ QUOTE ] Why? [/ QUOTE ] The psychology of a really shorthanded game is usually totally diferent. People start calling with almost anything (Q5o in the SB? CALL!!), so your fold equity goes way way down. Like Schneids says, this is really subjective. Which mistakes are your opponents making, calling too much, folding too much, etc. ? You adjust your raising standards based on that. Don't you guys have different raising standards at 6max from the CO and BTN based on the players behind you and in the blinds? You should..
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#29
11-03-2005, 06:26 PM
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Re: very shorthanded preflop standards
Im at 38/28.5 filtered for 3-4 handed. My atsb is pretty much the same as it is 6 handed. I do agree that you have less fold equity, but at the same time i still believe you have less fold equity in 6 max games, when you are in a stealing situation. Altho, I would say that the main difference is in a 6max game people may not notice that you are stealing 35-40% of the time, so they might give you a little credit. IN a 3/4 handed game everyone can figure out that you are stealing that much and they will probably adjust. If someone adjusted to my stealing in a 6max game, I would readjust. Same thing goes in a 3-4 handed game. I still maintain that in general, these two situations are the same.
-Mike
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#30
11-03-2005, 06:54 PM
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Re: very shorthanded preflop standards
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Why would you be able to play more hands for a profit in a 3-4 handed game as opposed to a 6 handed game with 2-3 folds in front of you? [/ QUOTE ] Playing constantly 3-4 handed is very different from 6max play. [/ QUOTE ] Why? [/ QUOTE ] The psychology of a really shorthanded game is usually totally diferent. People start calling with almost anything (Q5o in the SB? CALL!!), so your fold equity goes way way down. Like Schneids says, this is really subjective. Which mistakes are your opponents making, calling too much, folding too much, etc. ? You adjust your raising standards based on that. Don't you guys have different raising standards at 6max from the CO and BTN based on the players behind you and in the blinds? You should.. [/ QUOTE ] I completely agree. It's the players that make the difference and actions they take.
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