Commerce 10/20 - Unexciting Fold

I agree that calling this flop is bad, you're inflating the pot and gaining zero information. Since you just called preflop I think you need to raise the flop and attempt to get some indication of exactly where you are in this hand. Make it 600 or so, see who squirms and how much.

[riverboatking]

alot of folks have advocated raising the flop to "find out where you are".

i don't think that raising on this flop will help you define your opponents hands, and may force you to fold the winning hand.

lets say you raise this flop after just calling preflop, there is no way your opponents are going to give you credit for an overpair, and there is a good chance a hand like 10-10 or JJ is going to push thinking there is a good chance you are on a draw...now what do you do?

you have no idea if your up against an underpair or AA/KK.

and most player at this level have a hard time not overplaying overpairs to the board, putting you in a position of outthinking yourself.

i think that because you have position you should give serious consideration to reraising preflop, it allows you to take control of the hand and makes it easier to play.

it will be hard for smaller pairs to push preflop, and if they just call you, odds are you have the best hand and won't mind playing a big pot with a ragged board like the flop you got.

however seeing as you just called preflop i would definately make the overcall and reevalute on the turn.

if your opponents are passive you can raise the flop to take control, however if your opponents are aggressive i would tend to just call.

no way you fold this hand as there is 0% chance either opponent is giving you credit for QQ in this spot.

[lapoker17]

Good Post Jonas - You know SB - I don't know his name.

I'm heading over in about an hour - It's been dead lately - Everyone in Vegas.

Although one of the whales rolled in to the short 20-40 game last night and dropped 6 10K bundles on the table. Where were you.

[FoxwoodsFiend]

I don't think that a lead and then a call is at all an indication you're behind. I would raise. The benefit of a raise here is that if somebody pulls the stop and go on you, you know you're beat.
But against a lot of straightforward opponents, a lot of worse hands call here (such as 88-JJ) and then slow down and you extract value on the flop while utilizing position to avoid having to make tough decisions. I would make it $700 and fold to a push. Calling is obviously pretty abysmal.

[riverboatking]

[ QUOTE ]
Good Post Jonas - You know SB - I don't know his name.

I'm heading over in about an hour - It's been dead lately - Everyone in Vegas.

Although one of the whales rolled in to the short 20-40 game last night and dropped 6 10K bundles on the table. Where were you.

[/ QUOTE ]

i actually haven't been putting in my normal hours at the tables this past month...kind of slacking.

i'm gonna put in a lot more hours for the rest of the month so i'll be around.

keep posting, your hands are always interesting and thought provoking.

I think calling and re-evaluating has merit, but in this case because villains aren't as deep as hero (I believe they each start the hand with 100 and 120bb's), I tend to prefer raising. Hero isn't really in love with about 1/3 of the deck coming off on the turn (flush cards + A's and K's), so i'm not a huge fan of gaining no information on this card. You gain an amount of information by just calling to see how they react on the turn, but not nearly as much as by raising.

So ya, if stacks were deeper, and a 3bet back to me on the flop was going to make me sick, I'd be more inclined to call. But on this board, with these stacks, I think raising is more the play.

[riverboatking]

if you raise and either one push exactly what info have you gotten?
that they like their hand.
ok now what?
what range of hands to they put you on, thus prompting you to ask what range of hands can they be pushing with?

now if you raise and they smoothcall what info do you have?

the only way you get any info is if they fold...and then all you know is you squandered an oppertunity to win alot more money from a hand that probably only has two outs to beat you.

[sawseech]

really tight fold
i hate making decisions on the turn but i think this is a spot where you have no recourse

"ok now waht?"
call for 90-100 bb's, with a big overpair, in that game innit?

You say you aren't going to gain any information beyond "they like their hand", well, by calling you don't even get that do you? At that point the only thing you've established is that they have 2 cards that they think are pretty.

As far as getting a lot more money from a hand that probably only had 2 outs: If he can't call a reasonable raise on the flop, then I don't imagine I'm getting much more of his money until he HITS the 2 outer.

We seem to be the only 2 left here, feel free to continue in PM if you would prefer.

[riverboatking]

[ QUOTE ]
"ok now waht?"
call for 90-100 bb's, with a big overpair, in that game innit?

You say you aren't going to gain any information beyond "they like their hand", well, by calling you don't even get that do you? At that point the only thing you've established is that they have 2 cards that they think are pretty.

As far as getting a lot more money from a hand that probably only had 2 outs: If he can't call a reasonable raise on the flop, then I don't imagine I'm getting much more of his money until he HITS the 2 outer.

We seem to be the only 2 left here, feel free to continue in PM if you would prefer.

[/ QUOTE ]

if a blank hits the turn, which it will the majority of the time there is a good chance you get a big bet from all the hands that will fold if you raise the flop.

its the kind of situation where often you will be way ahead or way behind so raising doesn't give you much value.

now if you think you'll get a call from JJ on down then by all means push. it all depends on your opponents.